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Post by cd06 on Apr 5, 2021 7:57:17 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I want to ask all of you a question. Do you sketch holes and a routing before you build anything in the designer? Do you scribble down holes or do you draw them to a specific scale? Would love to hear your thoughts - I've got a plot and a routing ready so I'm thinking about hole sketching a little bit before I surface and sculpt anything. Thanks!
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Apr 5, 2021 8:27:48 GMT -5
Nope, which is a shame ... as a kid in the pre-electronic 60s, I would sketch holes for our paper & dice versions of golf. Not as nifty as Ben's, this kid's art skills being what they were.
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Post by sroel908 on Apr 5, 2021 8:52:26 GMT -5
Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. I typically just fly through the plot and kind of do my "sketching" mentally by looking at the plot and envisioning the holes I can see.
However, I do have some yardage books around the place here that I sometimes doodle in and sketch holes, and then will transfer those holes into the courses I make.
And, since, I usually work on RCRs, the plots are done for me already so...haha!
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Post by b101 on Apr 5, 2021 11:23:00 GMT -5
Whilst I appreciate the kind words, Bob - mine are nothing compared to some - TannerBronson and jayraygun being the two setting the gold standard here by some distance. Some frankly absurd examples below: --- As for mine, I do it to visualise how a hole should play without the designer to distract me, but I'll have landforms in mind when sketching. Often when I'm designing, I leap ahead if I haven't sat and thought it through beforehand and the results tend to be worse than if I've planned on paper. I have always thought best with pen and paper (still plan lessons that way as well) and so this helps my process. Plus, I enjoy the process of drawing things out and can consider the full 18 holes and work out if I'm repeating hole ideas. It's also useful for bunker shaping, as I draw those from the bird's eye view in the designer, so drawing in 2D helps with those as well - I can mentally picture what they look like in 3D; just can't draw in 3D... As I think I've mentioned a lot elsewhere, the key with any of this is not incorporating it rigidly. My sketches tend to be pretty loosely implemented in game and whilst I'll use graph paper, I never worry about exact yardages, just approximations. All about building a mental picture for me.
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Apr 5, 2021 11:23:36 GMT -5
I sketch holes when an idea for a good one pops into my head randomly. Usually, if I get something on paper, I can remember it for later use. When I’m designing, if I find a spot on the plot I’m working where one of my sketches fits, it’s still in my memory good enough that I can implement it into the course. As for completely designing a course on paper before even opening the designer, I’ve tried it and I find it a bit boring and tedious just transferring what I have on paper into the designer. One of the things I love most about virtual designing is “finding” great golf holes after creating the plot. There’s definitely more than a few designers who are very good at transferring ideas on paper into the designer but for me, it ruins some of the creative process involved with designing a golf course.
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Apr 5, 2021 11:26:24 GMT -5
Whilst I appreciate the kind words, Bob - mine are nothing compared to some - TannerBronson and jayraygun being the two setting the gold standard here by some distance. Some frankly absurd examples below: --- As for mine, I do it to visualise how a hole should play without the designer to distract me, but I'll have landforms in mind when sketching. Often when I'm designing, I leap ahead if I haven't sat and thought it through beforehand and the results tend to be worse than if I've planned on paper. I have always thought best with pen and paper (still plan lessons that way as well) and so this helps my process. Plus, I enjoy the process of drawing things out and can consider the full 18 holes and work out if I'm repeating hole ideas. It's also useful for bunker shaping, as I draw those from the bird's eye view in the designer, so drawing in 2D helps with those as well - I can mentally picture what they look like in 3D; just can't draw in 3D... As I think I've mentioned a lot elsewhere, the key with any of this is not incorporating it rigidly. My sketches tend to be pretty loosely implemented in game and whilst I'll use graph paper, I never worry about exact yardages, just approximations. All about building a mental picture for me. Agreed. Jay Ray’s especially are phenomenal and are works of art in and of themselves! Really enjoyed watching his video in his Nat’l Treasure WIP thread. Anyone interested in golf illustration should definitely check that out!
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Post by shotstone on Apr 5, 2021 11:28:48 GMT -5
Agreed. Jay Ray’s especially are phenomenal and are works of art in and of themselves! Really enjoyed watching his video in his Nat’l Treasure WIP thread. Anyone interested in golf illustration should definitely check that out! Couldn't agree more. His video was absolutely awesome. Couldn't believe it was an hour+. I was so fascinated the time just flew by!
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Post by TannerBronson on Apr 5, 2021 11:30:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the tag here, Ben! Oddly was gonna send one your way today. 😂
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Post by trailducker on Apr 5, 2021 11:47:05 GMT -5
As I said in the NT post, starting out on here I probably can begin to not lean so heavy on sketching but my process so far is before I hop in the designer I draw loosely at 1:200 scale the routing. I usually draw at least 4-5 variations here playing around with hole lengths, orientations and adjacencies as well as deciding my "big" land features. I usually start with the holes, then weave in any land features, then draw dashed lines for major elevation changes.
I then go through at 1:50 scale and draw the holes one by one. It's not as accurate or detailed at all as what Dylan and JayRayGun draw in Ben's examples. Mostly because I know things will be adjusted once I get into the designer, it's just to get the major concept for each hole out. This is actually where I blow up holes rather then in the designer. But again I'm good at visualizing 3D so I can visualize neighboring holes pretty well in my head in this stage incorporating how the holes inetract.
I then hop in the designer starting with the routing. There are always adjustments made at this stage from what I have drawn, the drawing is just a starting point and the main design features to make the room for. Second I make any major land movements with the sharp round brush to get things generally at the right heights. (Major land movements have been a common theme on my courses so far, but I have a couple more flat ones in my unpublished courses where this step isn't necessary). Third step is going through hole by hole and getting the surfaces down which again leads to adjustments as I get the holes actually in there. Doing this before I start getting sightlines perfect and planting is important to make sure everything fits and I usually think of my whole course as cohessive so making sure it all works is important before jumping in the details. It's at this point I use Maydays plot randomization tool and then go in working the sightlnes and green slopes, rebuilding bunkers to how I want them and eventually planting hole by hole. All of those steps means my drawings need a bit of mallubility to them which is why I don't go to the level as mentioned by Dylan and Jay. I know if I do I would consider it more "precious" and probably force stuff too much.
That being said I do want to go a few courses where I build a plot and then find the routing and holes rather then starting with a blank canvas. I do think starting with a blank canvas has helped me learn the designer because I needing to use it to manipulate the land how I envisioned but now that I have that more down I can start having less of a heavy hand and more "finding" the course on a plot. I probably will go back to pen and paper while doing this but it will be more with the plot as it is in mind rather then being able to be completely minipulated by me as before. But for me it is still the quickest way to blow through various ideas.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Apr 5, 2021 12:51:52 GMT -5
Whilst I appreciate the kind words, Bob - mine are nothing compared to some - TannerBronson and jayraygun being the two setting the gold standard here by some distance. Some frankly absurd examples below: --- As for mine, I do it to visualise how a hole should play without the designer to distract me, but I'll have landforms in mind when sketching. Often when I'm designing, I leap ahead if I haven't sat and thought it through beforehand and the results tend to be worse than if I've planned on paper. I have always thought best with pen and paper (still plan lessons that way as well) and so this helps my process. Plus, I enjoy the process of drawing things out and can consider the full 18 holes and work out if I'm repeating hole ideas. It's also useful for bunker shaping, as I draw those from the bird's eye view in the designer, so drawing in 2D helps with those as well - I can mentally picture what they look like in 3D; just can't draw in 3D... As I think I've mentioned a lot elsewhere, the key with any of this is not incorporating it rigidly. My sketches tend to be pretty loosely implemented in game and whilst I'll use graph paper, I never worry about exact yardages, just approximations. All about building a mental picture for me. "The Atomic Golfer" does have some serious graphics chops ! I gather he's got an educational or professional background in such things. Tanner's stuff I am not as current on. I'm lucky/happy when I can settle on a nice font for the name.
I fondly remember when only a handful of 'TheGolfClub' courses had logos & custom art, but with the 2K21 wave, the 'course promotion game' definitely got 'upped'.
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jayraygun
Weekend Golfer
Don't worry, that unintentional blindness was intentional.
Posts: 137
TGCT Name: JayRayGun
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by jayraygun on Apr 5, 2021 23:20:38 GMT -5
**TL/DR** Sometimes I sketch out ideas, sometimes not. My National Treasure course will be the first course where I'll take a fully fleshed out course idea on paper into the designer with the intention of publishing. Hey guys, first off, let me say thank you for the kind words from everyone ( b101, hallzballz6908, PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA, and shotstone / trailducker (both of whom I can't tag for some reason). Secondly, sorry for the wall of text. I got to typing a didn't stop. Just refer to the TL/DR above if you'd rather not read the ramblings of a madman. To immediately answer the OPs question: "sometimes". When I first started using the designer I did not sketch anything out. I was following the general guidance of the popular tutorial series out there and trying by best to emulate. But soon I started to see a lot of design flaws in my finished products. For example, I had difficulty with routing. My first course is a good example of this where I didn't sketch anything and tried to just tie the holes to the plot I came up with. The front nine is tightly compacted and looks nice (from just a sightline perspective) when you see a lot of other holes as background for your shots. However, the back nine is very spread out with holes 15-18 playing basically end-to-end because I had to have 18 reach back to my clubhouse location. Other times I would have trouble tying in elevation changes in a natural way. And still other times I might get through 10 holes and find that I had four doglegs all going in the same direction and playing in the same direction. I would catch myself rehashing the same idea on a course over and over. So I started out by just sketching out a few hole ideas. Nothing too fancy or detailed. Really just a skeleton of a hole I could use for future reference when I might need a 370 yd dogleg left or a 200 yd par 3. These helped not only to build up a backlog of hole ideas I could call upon, but also helped me start to think about strategic design in a way I never really did in the designer. Also, I'm not always around my PC but I can usually get to some scrap of paper and a pencil to jot down an idea that pops into my head. Sometimes it's also nice to sit in the living room with the family and sketch instead of holed up inside my office with the designer. For me, erasing an idea for a green site or bunker location is much easier on paper than in the designer. And I don't mean functionally easier. I mean, when I go through the effort in the designer of building a hole, adjusting the land, and especially if I've moved on to planting, it's a lot more difficult for me to see that something doesn't work right and start over because blowing up a green site, or a hole, or especially a whole plot can be a painful experience knowing you have to do all that work again. Meanwhile, if I don't like what I'm drawing I can just flip a page. But in the end I have one more idea I can reference, even if it's more of a lesson in what not to do. My National Treasure course will be the first time I've taken a full 18 holes from pen and paper concept into the designer with the intention of publishing. My three published courses do not have any holes that I drew out beforehand. In some ways I view that as a positive in that, like others, I can look at a plot and "find" the holes in their "natural" environment. However, there are elements of all three designs I feel could have been better if I had mapped them out first and fiddled with the design on paper before heading into the designer. One thing to mention though is that taking a sketch into the designer is never a "1 for 1" process. Meaning, something on almost every hole is going to change. You'll find your sightlines don't look right or you've left too much room between holes or you've made your fairways too wide/narrow. Or, something positive, you get a burst of additional inspiration looking at your plot and an idea for a new hole concept comes up and you either try and work it into your original design or scrap a part of your design for the new idea. In most cases, sketching prior to designing does force you to take one more step in the designer and that is creating your plot (mostly) from scratch. Like for my NT course, I'm going to have to build up my intended elevations from the ocean to the mountains before I even put down a single fairway because if I don't start there, nothing will come out right. It's kind of a "pick your poison" decision: Do I sketch out my entire course knowing I'll have to build my plot from scratch but I'll have a good idea where it all fits, or do I start on a randomized plot knowing that my hole location have a chance to look more natural but knowing I might struggle with routing, or forcing an idea into a location where it doesn't fit, etc. Both methods have their pros and cons and one may not work at all for some designers while others flourish using each method. I don't think it stifles my imagination once I'm in the designer. In fact, it helps me a lot since even though I maybe have the hole layout "finished" I still need to plant everything to tie it all together and planting is usually something I only ever hint at in my sketches. For what it's worth, in response to PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA 's comment about my art education or profession I will divulge this little tidbit and give you a peek behind the Atomic Golfer curtain: I went to regular public grade schools in Texas and in fact, graduated high school below the required credits in any fine art program. I was recruited to play football at the US Naval Academy, the place where creativity goes to die. The closest thing I ever got to an art class there was taking Creative Writing my senior year. I spent 6.5 years in the Navy as everything from a Communications Officer, Future Operations Officer, and an Instructor. Nothing close to artistic there. And now I sell loading dock safety equipment to companies with large warehouses, distribution centers, and manufacturing plants. So I have no formal education or training in either art, design, golf course architecture, or the graphics programs I use such as Adobe Illustrator or Photoshop. I say all of that not to brag about any perceived "natural talent" but to reinforce the idea that everything I do can be one by anyone that has enough time, dedication, and good old-fashioned want-to. I've always enjoyed drawing. I started out like my kids tracing pictures in coloring books. Then I went on trying to freehand copy pages out of my comic books. My favorite things to draw as a kid were Batman (because he's a badass and the reason my black crayons were always broken nubs), Spider-Man (because I loved all the different body positions the comic book artists put him in), and Dragon Ball Z (because I loved the simple shading technique of laying solid colors together). I had (and still have) a lot of "How To Draw" books whether it was animals, cartoons, superheroes, manga, etc. I also do a lot of miniature figurine painting (Warhammer 40k Space Marines, not model cars or planes) which is almost like drawing but in 3D where you still have to use coloring and shading techniques to bring out the realism. So yes, I will admit, even without a formal education, there can be a wide gap between someone who has been drawing since they could hold a pencil and someone who never has, but all that means is that other person may just be getting a late start. Doesn't mean they'll never be what someone might consider "good". And even then, if we're just talking about sketching out golf course ideas, who cares if they're good? As long as you know what you intend, they're going to be for you anyways. I know guys like Crazycanuck1985 get asked all the time whether they have training in art, or design, or landscaping, etc. and Canuck always tells them no, he has no training outside of designing in the game and he says he can't really draw and doesn't consider himself an artist. Well, I'd argue that last point but regardless, it goes to show there is something out there for everyone where they can show some creativity. And creativity in and of itself is art. Which makes whomever "creates" an "artist". Only time will tell whether I'm able to take my drawings and make them come to life in the way I intended. In the same breath that some might say "I could never draw like that", others like me can say "I could never use the same tools and design a golf course like that." But at the end of the day, the only way either of those statements will be true is if you don't try. 8.7.3
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Post by Q on Apr 5, 2021 23:59:24 GMT -5
I always liked 3d modeling and animation so 2 dimensions never suited me well. too often I feel drawings limit the creativity of Z axis based editing but I've dabbled in both. using a tablet works quite well for me in that regard. too bad you cant import direct heightmaps in this game like you can in cities skylines. Here's a manually made heightmap for a cities skylines map using just a tablet, paint.net and fractal generation and ingame
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Post by shotstone on Apr 6, 2021 0:53:07 GMT -5
I won't tell my wife you went to the Naval Academy. As a USAFA grad she might make an account just to heckle 😜
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Post by cello on Apr 6, 2021 7:45:48 GMT -5
Yes I have 2 notepads full of sketches from TW07/08 courses ,,,good for reference too .I Also layout a skelaton of length before placing anything down. Here's a course creation video I did showing just that.
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jayraygun
Weekend Golfer
Don't worry, that unintentional blindness was intentional.
Posts: 137
TGCT Name: JayRayGun
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by jayraygun on Apr 6, 2021 9:49:38 GMT -5
I won't tell my wife you went to the Naval Academy. As a USAFA grad she might make an account just to heckle 😜 I'll just leave this here for no particular reason other than to say, "It inspires me." 8.7.3
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