2021 TCGT CC Design Contest - Info and Discussion Thread

[Davidius74]

I went about it the same way. Do the course as a whole package and then go through and choose 4 elements out of a possible 8 or 9.

[virtualgolfer65]

Sept 4, 2021 17:46:59 GMT -5 Q said:

Sept 4, 2021 17:18:50 GMT -5 mvpmanatee said:

To be honest - I definitely didn't think much of the requirements until after I was already done, and spent like 15 minutes deciding which 4 suited the course well.

I am sure that every good course in this contest would be in a similar boat. I think there were 7 or 8 that fit my course after all was said and done.

In my experience, the 4 requirements are just a great way to try to show some cool specific stuff about your course, without an explanation.

I think it's even more than that, a good course would easily have 4 of these requirements by default

I would tend to agree, but if we went back to the top courses from season 7 and evaluated them from this list, how many elements would they actually have?  Further, which ones would highlight that course the best and would the designer have chosen them, if asked?  Picking the elements AFTER you've created the course may check the boxes, but the criteria for CC contest states  "pick the the 4 you think highlights your course the best when submitting your entry"  If the rules stated "your course must included at least 4 of the following elements" instead, then that reads and should be judged differently.  

For sake of discussion, I grouped the "required elements" into what I thought were appropriate groups.  If would seem to me there are very clear design choices that need to be made ahead of time, unless a hole is designed one way and then changed (ie, longer tee shot, etc) to checkoff an element.


Required Elements:



Distance
At least one driveable par 4

At least one par 3 greater than 230 yards

At least one par 3 shorter than 125 yards

At least three par 4s under 400 yards

At least one three shot par 5
Total course yardage no greater than 6900


Bunkers / hazard specific:
Augusta bunker challenge (no more than 22 bunkers on the course)
At least two holes with zero bunkers

At least two holes with a center-line hazard (tree, bunker, etc)


Green sites
A shared green (2 holes using the same green site)

A double green (A hole having two different green sites)

Four green sites each within 200 yards of each other. Measure from inside edge of each green (i.e. closest point to the others).


Par specific
Back to back par 3s or par 5s

At least five par 5 holes

At least five par 3 holes

Either hole one or hole eighteen to be a par 3

Design specific
Entire course to be contained in square/rectangular 1,000,000 yard area (e.g. 1000x1000, 800x1250 etc). Set a perimeter early.
At least one blind tee shot
At least one template hole of your choice (please specify template used and provide a real world example!)

My question for those who read this, including the top designers, how many of the elements on the list are on the courses you've designed and do they highlight your course the best"? Note: I'm not trying to create an argument, rather just a discussion, and namely that picking elements from this list has to lead to very specific design choices and not just picking them at the end. Am I wrong?

[Q]

Sept 6, 2021 17:15:48 GMT -5 virtualgolfer65 said:

Sept 4, 2021 17:46:59 GMT -5 Q said:

I think it's even more than that, a good course would easily have 4 of these requirements by default

Distance
At least one driveable par 4

At least one par 3 greater than 230 yards

At least one par 3 shorter than 125 yards

At least three par 4s under 400 yards

At least one three shot par 5
Total course yardage no greater than 6900


Bunkers / hazard specific:
Augusta bunker challenge (no more than 22 bunkers on the course)
At least two holes with zero bunkers

At least two holes with a center-line hazard (tree, bunker, etc)


Green sites
A shared green (2 holes using the same green site)

A double green (A hole having two different green sites)

Four green sites each within 200 yards of each other. Measure from inside edge of each green (i.e. closest point to the others).


Par specific
Back to back par 3s or par 5s

At least five par 5 holes

At least five par 3 holes

Either hole one or hole eighteen to be a par 3

Design specific
Entire course to be contained in square/rectangular 1,000,000 yard area (e.g. 1000x1000, 800x1250 etc). Set a perimeter early.
At least one blind tee shot
At least one template hole of your choice (please specify template used and provide a real world example!)

My question for those who read this, including the top designers, how many of the elements on the list are on the courses you've designed and do they highlight your course the best"? Note: I'm not trying to create an argument, rather just a discussion, and namely that picking elements from this list has to lead to very specific design choices and not just picking them at the end. Am I wrong?

I always found this contest criteria interesting because certain criteria are more common than others and could be weighted differently.
For Instance, Doing a course within a 1,000,000 yard area definitely has to be planned from the beginning. The weight of it definitely is stronger than others for this reason.
While doing something like a double green or shared green might be a trap because it is so ridiculously hard to do well!

The criteria I would say is the one's I would say belongs on most courses is the "Distances" options.  Variety in hole design is king and while it is definitely not necessary to have a driveable 4 on your course or a par 3 over 230 yards, they are interesting hole designs that when pulled off can do wonders to make your course more interesting.


I looked back at all the courses I've ever released and Ive had at least 4 requirements on each of them fulfilled just by pure accident (Te amo fits into a 1,000,000 yard rectangle completely by accident, go figure). 

In terms of your last point of criteria BEST representing your course, I purposefully didnt choose ones like 230 yard par 3 for Zodiac because it is only 220 from 2 pin locations so I didnt think it was a perfect fit there, also provided reasons in my thread for the ones I didnt choose. I generally chose the 4 criteria that I felt were most impressive/I was most proud of

[virtualgolfer65]

Sept 6, 2021 18:33:18 GMT -5 Q said:

Sept 6, 2021 17:15:48 GMT -5 virtualgolfer65 said:

Distance
At least one driveable par 4

At least one par 3 greater than 230 yards

At least one par 3 shorter than 125 yards

At least three par 4s under 400 yards

At least one three shot par 5
Total course yardage no greater than 6900


Bunkers / hazard specific:
Augusta bunker challenge (no more than 22 bunkers on the course)
At least two holes with zero bunkers

At least two holes with a center-line hazard (tree, bunker, etc)


Green sites
A shared green (2 holes using the same green site)

A double green (A hole having two different green sites)

Four green sites each within 200 yards of each other. Measure from inside edge of each green (i.e. closest point to the others).


Par specific
Back to back par 3s or par 5s

At least five par 5 holes

At least five par 3 holes

Either hole one or hole eighteen to be a par 3

Design specific
Entire course to be contained in square/rectangular 1,000,000 yard area (e.g. 1000x1000, 800x1250 etc). Set a perimeter early.
At least one blind tee shot
At least one template hole of your choice (please specify template used and provide a real world example!)

My question for those who read this, including the top designers, how many of the elements on the list are on the courses you've designed and do they highlight your course the best"? Note: I'm not trying to create an argument, rather just a discussion, and namely that picking elements from this list has to lead to very specific design choices and not just picking them at the end. Am I wrong?

I always found this contest criteria interesting because certain criteria are more common than others and could be weighted differently.
For Instance, Doing a course within a 1,000,000 yard area definitely has to be planned from the beginning. The weight of it definitely is stronger than others for this reason.
While doing something like a double green or shared green might be a trap because it is so ridiculously hard to do well!

The criteria I would say is the one's I would say belongs on most courses is the "Distances" options.  Variety in hole design is king and while it is definitely not necessary to have a driveable 4 on your course or a par 3 over 230 yards, they are interesting hole designs that when pulled off can do wonders to make your course more interesting.


I looked back at all the courses I've ever released and Ive had at least 4 requirements on each of them fulfilled just by pure accident (Te amo fits into a 1,000,000 yard rectangle completely by accident, go figure). 

In terms of your last point of criteria BEST representing your course, I purposefully didnt choose ones like 230 yard par 3 for Zodiac because it is only 220 from 2 pin locations so I didnt think it was a perfect fit there, also provided reasons in my thread for the ones I didnt choose. I generally chose the 4 criteria that I felt were most impressive/I was most proud of

I love the discussion of this and thanks for taking the time to reply. I always find it valuable and might even stretch the overall design community with these kind of discussions. I’m not one for checking off criteria or boxes, but the elements would seem to need different weighted values, if we look at them from he might’ve planning and effort to pull them off.

Of course a crappy done course negates the “which element” discussion. It would be great if there was a way to give more weight or less weight based on the ease of producing each of the elements.

[Davidius74]

Of course there has to be some planning before you start. I was going to try for a double green and had a course that was doing that. The course I went with was my 3rd plot I tried. I never do that on any course. I stick with a plot and then change the routing if things aren't working. There is only one hole after routing the course that I stick with trying to make it fit into a required element and that is the long par 3 4th. As it was 232 yds long when done with basic routing.

Co-incidentally this is the first I have ever made that is under 7000 yds. Was never planned that way but how all the holes routes in for under the criteria.

But yes while some planning needs to be done beforehand for some criteria, I just went with what felt right and then chose the criteria near the end, making small subtle changes to what was already there.

I think what it comes down to is the individual designer and how they g about the process.

[aeastwood54]

mattf27 Just to let you know that you have already done a playthrough of my course Emerald Basin Reserve on twitch a while ago right after trailduckers if you can find the VOD for it. Just will save you doing it again.

Congrats to all who have published. Still working my way slowly through playing them all but some cracking courses that I've played so far.

[jayraygun]

Sept 8, 2021 2:50:55 GMT -5 Davidius74 said:

Of course there has to be some planning before you start. I was going to try for a double green and had a course that was doing that. The course I went with was my 3rd plot I tried. I never do that on any course. I stick with a plot and then change the routing if things aren't working. There is only one hole after routing the course that I stick with trying to make it fit into a required element and that is the long par 3 4th. As it was 232 yds long when done with basic routing.

Co-incidentally this is the first I have ever made that is under 7000 yds. Was never planned that way but how all the holes routes in for under the criteria.

But yes while some planning needs to be done beforehand for some criteria, I just went with what felt right and then chose the criteria near the end, making small subtle changes to what was already there.

I think what it comes down to is the individual designer and how they g about the process.

Maybe it's just me but when I first read the rules of this contest I read them as, "Before you begin your course creation, choose four of these requirements and ensure your course includes them. Anything beyond those four is fine, but when you submit, make sure you point out which four you chose to highlight for the judges so they know which four your focused on." Not necessarily, after you're done, pick any four of these requirements that your course happens to have.

I know some designers have a real aversion to pre-planning a lot of what they do. They have a more "go with the flow" approach and see the course take shape as they go along, sometimes going through many different iterations, plots, and hole designs along the way. Some of them feel that any pre-planned restrictions will limit their creativity and cause them to force some things into their designs which might make them miss out on a cool hole concept or lovely green site.

Maybe I'm in the minority of designers that generally come into each design with some kind of overall picture of what they want out of their course and that's sort of what drew me to this contest in particular. For Crooked Arrow, I had no plan starting out beyond the look I was going for and I feel the course suffered because of it with inconsistencies like fairway sizes, green sizes, and bunker shapes. On Mapu Rupanco I drew out every hole beforehand, down to the fairway widths along each hole, green shapes, and even elevation changes. While I think the course itself is cohesive, I also think this approach caused me to become too linear and miss out on some things that might have made the course pop more. 

So with Killian Farms Dairy & CC I tried to marry the two approaches. I picked my four elements (Inside a 1M sqyd plot, under 6900 yards, at least three par 4s under 400 yards, at least five par 3 holes), drew up an 800 x 1250 yd plot, drew a lake in the middle because I knew I wanted a large lake within a mountain pass, then came up with my routing inside of that making sure I had the par 4s under 400 yards and the five par 3s. I didn't draw any individual hole elements. Each hole on my drawing was just a square for a tee box, lines to measure out total distance, and a small circle for a green. Then when I got in the designer I started building up the plot enough to have a good idea of elevations and such and then laid down the hole waypoints to match my drawing. From there I was able to fine tune the routing, make elevation changes to make holes interesting while keeping them in the same place, and ultimately having a more free-flow approach to the individual hole design while keeping the more structured overall design. 

I thought the way this contest was supposed to work was to see if designers could incorporate some early self-imposed restrictions and make a cohesive course around them, not make a course first and then retroactively decide which elements they might happen to have, even if those elements are generally shared among many courses. 

[mvpmanatee]

Sept 9, 2021 7:53:25 GMT -5 jayraygun said:

Maybe I'm in the minority of designers that generally come into each design with some kind of overall picture of what they want out of their course

To be honest, everybody does this, no matter if it's a contest or not. I don't think adding "required elements" should ever limit your creative freedom in a design.

[jayraygun]

No, I'm sure you're right and everyone has a "vision". I was talking more about putting pen to paper and have a "plan" before going into the designer.

[mattf27]

Sept 8, 2021 7:19:01 GMT -5 aeastwood54 said:

mattf27 Just to let you know that you have already done a playthrough of my course Emerald Basin Reserve on twitch a while ago right after trailduckers if you can find the VOD for it. Just will save you doing it again.

Congrats to all who have published. Still working my way slowly through playing them all but some cracking courses that I've played so far.

I've got the video saved, just thought I uploaded it with the rest of that batch and apparently didn't. I promise I'll get around to the rest of the playthroughs and YouTube uploads when things settle down a little bit.

[Davidius74]

Sept 9, 2021 8:40:32 GMT -5 jayraygun said:

No, I'm sure you're right and everyone has a "vision". I was talking more about putting pen to paper and have a "plan" before going into the designer.

I have tried to put pen to paper and then design my course in game from that. I have tried a whole course and also individual holes. The problem I came across is that I had so many distance markers before actually putting a hole down that my screen was flooded with all these white lines that I couldn't even see the location of the holes. I know everyone has there own way of doing things and no-one is right or wrong, it just depends on how you go about it.

When I said I didn't have a plan I was meaning before routing. I did the major sculpting, then router a course to fit into that. From there I looked at how I could about choosing 4 criteria before surfacing. Adjusting the routing slightly as necessary.

Because of criteria, this was the first contest I started multiple courses on, simply because the initial elements weren't working.

[mattf27]

Was hopeful we'd be done with round 1 this weekend, but it looks like we've got a couple groups still finishing up. Will aim to do a reveal show next weekend. Also, looking to kick off the playthroughs again as well.

[Davidius74]

Sept 16, 2021 19:41:55 GMT -5 mattf27 said:

Was hopeful we'd be done with round 1 this weekend, but it looks like we've got a couple groups still finishing up. Will aim to do a reveal show next weekend. Also, looking to kick off the playthroughs again as well.

If the judges in group 3 would just hurry up and eliminate my dumpster fire then I can stop checking lol

[axelvonfersen]

Sept 18, 2021 5:43:21 GMT -5 Davidius74 said:

Sept 16, 2021 19:41:55 GMT -5 mattf27 said:

Was hopeful we'd be done with round 1 this weekend, but it looks like we've got a couple groups still finishing up. Will aim to do a reveal show next weekend. Also, looking to kick off the playthroughs again as well.

I, Davidius74, would hereby like to withdraw from this contest. 

Took care of it for you.

[GeraldEpee]

And..... speculate.