|
Post by cd06 on Feb 7, 2021 4:31:50 GMT -5
Personal feelings about blind tee shots are one thing, arguing that this isn't an intimidating tee shot is baffling: On a course with so many great sightlines, this has to be my favourite. Every time I play this hole I feel intimidated in the best way possible.
|
|
|
Post by b101 on Feb 7, 2021 4:57:24 GMT -5
And yet it's not a sightline
|
|
|
Post by cd06 on Feb 7, 2021 5:20:09 GMT -5
In which case, it remains my favourite tee shot on the course. Love that hole
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 7:12:42 GMT -5
What you and others assume (and thus "establish") is nothing I like to comment, and thus ignore - but it gets to a point where you need to address it. Yes, we have exhausted the discussion, because we simply do not agree on this and that is totaly fine. It is ofcourse totaly fine that you find blind tee shots (or other shots for that matter) thrilling and exciting, or intimidating for that matter. As far as my experience with all those I have played with, we have different fears in golf, but one thing is a common thing - and that is fear of water We also do not share the anticipation feeling, and that is fine (and that is true for the majority I have played golf with). I do not - and all players I've played with - like blind tee shots, and certainly not blind approaches from a good lie in the fairway (it has become quite alot of golfers over the years). Whereas I and all players I've played with, on links courses (this point is crucial) where blindness occurs naturally and adds to the holes, do like blind tee shots when done well and are fine with the occasional blind shot from the fairway. I'll reiterate the question you're ignoring: have you played much or any links golf? Because this is a pointless discussion if you haven't. Equally, your comment about a 'good lie in the fairway' would point to another misunderstanding about links golf. There's no such thing as a guaranteed good lie in the fairway on this sort of course. Not ignoring, since this is the first time the the question has been asked. I assume you know I live in Norway, thus the majority of golf I play is in driveable proximity to where I live (which I guess is the case for almost all amateur golfers). And you know what I mean on a good lie in the fairway. I assume you don't think wrong or right side of the fairway (or simply wrong place - ie. dips and ridges etc) are unique to british/irish links courses. I did a little bit of reading this morning, and this is a good read for this discussion I think: www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/when-blind-is-greatTo add a few comments on the article: - The majority of examples are from semi-blind strategic holes which I totaly agree: “The places where I feel blindness is best is when the player is given the option to avoid it” which is a very good summary of my view on the matter. - There are some other articles on the subject that touches on issues on blind shots in general that I previous has mentioned; safety, but also pace of play as blind shots can lead to more lost balls and thus time looking for balls (it is harder to find a ball in which you don't see land), and also I would like to add that waiting at tee if you are not sure if it is clear can add to the time it takes to play a course. Subject to how crowded the course are. - Intimidation are not touched on the articles I read on the subject. If you take a look at the old course at St Andrews; I love the Road hole. That is such an intimidating tee shot, fully visible for all players. Much more so than the 17th in my opinion. - False strategy; this is a concept I find utter rubbish. I speak as a golfer, not an architect - and if for example you have a hole with water on the left side of the fairway, rough on the right - you know the more risky play is to play towards the water and land on the left side of the fairway. If that is the suboptimal lie compared to the right side, it makes no sense. If I where to nail my drive and land perfectly on the left side, while my playing partner played safe and landed on the right side - I would not be happy if he had the better lie for the approach.
|
|
|
Post by joegolferg on Feb 7, 2021 9:33:06 GMT -5
Visual intimidation is a very real thing for pros and amateurs alike. I've seen Webb Simpson sky his tee shot on the first hole of the Ryder Cup through nerves. Did he have anything to fear? No, but the moment got to him. Sometimes, it's more than just 'see shot, hit shot'. And actually, when it's more than that, it's the best form of golf. But that's a tangent and one I won't ever convince you of, for the simple reason that you haven't experienced links golf and also believe firmly in fairness within a sport that was founded on its very unfairness.Put someone in front of a cavernous bunker and you will see shots you don't otherwise see. It's discussions like this which make it clear you simply haven't ever experienced this and therefore you will not get it. We've been around the houses with this. It's not a shot you'd see on a parkland course and you haven't experienced links golf, nor do you try to understand it. All of the above is fine, but don't discard it out of hand because it doesn't fit with the narrow experience of golf that you have had. I would be careful in claiming what others have experienced or not. I feel pretty confident that you've never experienced links golf or any sort of golf course that has well thought out blind shots incorporated into them. You cannot possibly win the argument with that sort of inexperience. Read the room, mate.
|
|
|
Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Feb 7, 2021 9:56:03 GMT -5
Anders wakes up. Stretches. Sips coffee. Thinks “today’s a good day to rehash a dumb argument with Ben” I don’t know what exactly you’re trying to prove Anders but going around in circles like this is not doing it. Just trying to set new page count record for this recurring theme ? I bow to the king ...
|
|
|
Post by b101 on Feb 7, 2021 10:01:15 GMT -5
Whereas I and all players I've played with, on links courses (this point is crucial) where blindness occurs naturally and adds to the holes, do like blind tee shots when done well and are fine with the occasional blind shot from the fairway. I'll reiterate the question you're ignoring: have you played much or any links golf? Because this is a pointless discussion if you haven't. Equally, your comment about a 'good lie in the fairway' would point to another misunderstanding about links golf. There's no such thing as a guaranteed good lie in the fairway on this sort of course. Not ignoring, since this is the first time the the question has been asked. I assume you know I live in Norway, thus the majority of golf I play is in driveable proximity to where I live (which I guess is the case for almost all amateur golfers). And you know what I mean on a good lie in the fairway. I assume you don't think wrong or right side of the fairway (or simply wrong place - ie. dips and ridges etc) are unique to british/irish links courses. I did a little bit of reading this morning, and this is a good read for this discussion I think: www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/when-blind-is-greatTo add a few comments on the article: - The majority of examples are from semi-blind strategic holes which I totaly agree: “The places where I feel blindness is best is when the player is given the option to avoid it” which is a very good summary of my view on the matter. - There are some other articles on the subject that touches on issues on blind shots in general that I previous has mentioned; safety, but also pace of play as blind shots can lead to more lost balls and thus time looking for balls (it is harder to find a ball in which you don't see land), and also I would like to add that waiting at tee if you are not sure if it is clear can add to the time it takes to play a course. Subject to how crowded the course are. - Intimidation are not touched on the articles I read on the subject. If you take a look at the old course at St Andrews; I love the Road hole. That is such an intimidating tee shot, fully visible for all players. Much more so than the 17th in my opinion. - False strategy; this is a concept I find utter rubbish. I speak as a golfer, not an architect - and if for example you have a hole with water on the left side of the fairway, rough on the right - you know the more risky play is to play towards the water and land on the left side of the fairway. If that is the suboptimal lie compared to the right side, it makes no sense. If I where to nail my drive and land perfectly on the left side, while my playing partner played safe and landed on the right side - I would not be happy if he had the better lie for the approach. Can only echo what Joe has said. You still haven't answered the question, but if you haven't played links golf then, I'm sorry, but you are missing vital experience in order to debate this fully. I don't disagree with that many of your opinions, but you simply do not have the tools or experience to argue this one. For what it's worth, I agree with your point on false strategy. FYI, the Road hole at St Andrews is the 17th...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 10:03:12 GMT -5
FYI, the Road hole at St Andrews is the 17th... Okay, my mistake (I have always thought of the 16th as the Road hole).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 10:29:25 GMT -5
You still haven't answered the question Yes I have. And this will be the last on this from me, and I will continue to ignore it, as it is off topic, discussing one person (me) and not the topic. Yes - I have played links courses. And I do not live in links land. That should be answer enough.
|
|
|
Post by tpetro on Feb 7, 2021 11:57:30 GMT -5
You still haven't answered the question Yes I have. And this will be the last on this from me, and I will continue to ignore it, as it is off topic, discussing one person (me) and not the topic. Yes - I have played links courses. And I do not live in links land. That should be answer enough. What course? Considering 16 at St. Andrews to be the Road Hole disqualifies all your points, so please name one that you have played that re-qualifies your points and we'll drop it. FYI, nonsense that has "links" in the title does not count. See "the Links at Boynton Beach" - a parkland sh!thole in Miami. Gotta be UK or Ireland.
|
|
|
Post by b101 on Feb 7, 2021 12:10:33 GMT -5
You still haven't answered the question Yes I have. And this will be the last on this from me, and I will continue to ignore it, as it is off topic, discussing one person (me) and not the topic. Yes - I have played links courses. And I do not live in links land. That should be answer enough. That is indeed answer enough. My links experience (by no means complete, but pretty solid): Burnham and Berrow (member) Western Gailes Turnberry Royal Lytham & St Annes Royal St George's Rye Littlestone Prince's Saunton (East and West) Royal North Devon Machrihanish Dunes Formby Royal Birkdale Le Touquet Probably some others I'm forgetting. I post this not as a 'look at me', rather to explain that there's some outstanding examples of blindness amongst those courses - many of which I appreciate far more since becoming interested in architecture. Nobody is trying to claim all blind shots are good, far from it - and I strongly suspect the courses or blind shots you have experienced are awfully done. But equally, nobody else is trying to claim all blind shots are bad (Edit: typo corrected), other than you. Unless you are looking at when it's done well, this is a pointless discussion. So many of your posts on this forum are absolutes, which is such a closed view of a sport that encompasses so much diversity.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 13:47:22 GMT -5
Nobody is trying to claim all blind shots are good, far from it - and I strongly suspect the courses or blind shots you have experienced are awfully done. But equally, nobody else is trying to claim all blind shots are good, other than you. Unless you are looking at when it's done well, this is a pointless discussion. I claim all blind shots are good?! I suspect you mean I claim all blindness are bad design? And that is false - clearly stated in the first post in this thread. I have two absolutes when it comes to blind shots, and that is I do not like complete blind tee shots, or complete blindness from all over the fairway. It is totaly fine to discuss example holes. We have looked at a couple of holes, and we are never likely going to agree on complete blind tee shots. As I said, I have read a bit on the subject today - and what is common is: "controversy", "hard to sell", "hostility". It confirms what I experienced with other golfers. If you don't mind, we could look at the hole that seems to be highest regarded when it comes to blind tee shots - and that is the 9th on Royal County Down. (Just a little on the course itself - while very highly regarded, I read so many reviews that comment on the blind tee shots in a negative light (but still give the course full score - so golfers rate the golf high despite blind tee shots, not because of blind tee shots). If I am not mistaken, Harry Colt was hired to reduce the number of blind tee shots?). From the back tees, there are ca. 190 yards to the ridge where the dune drops down. From the regular tees, it is ca. 130 yards. There are a clear fairway towards the ridge - so the player have the option to lay up, which would leave 280 yards to the hole, which makes it out of reach for green in regulation. The fairway makes it intuitive to know where to aim also going for the next part of the fairway - can't remember the elevation change from tee to that fairway, but it is ca 235 yard carry from the back tee, and ca 185 yard carry from the regular tees. You have room to the right and a nasty hill to the left, so the safe is to the right, but then the greens direction, and the right dune hill next to the green comes more into play. So you want to favor the left side on the drive, which makes the left dune hill be a risk. Classic example of a very good risk and reward hole, and no doubt to why it is so highly regarded. The alternative to avoid a blind tee shot, would be to shorten the hole and make it a short reachable par 4. That could ofcourse work very well. It would be a very nice tee shot with the magistic view that is so often taken of this hole. The left side dune hills would be less in play however, but the hills and forward bunkers to the green would be in play for the better players. I think this would be a very highly regarded hole without the blind tee shot as a short par 4 - but the way the blind tee shot is made makes it good for me. You have the option to avoid the blind shot - good, and there is a clear reward in hitting the blind shot. I am in that camp that don't agree on how awesome tee shot it is - I would rather see and keep the good strategic option off tee, but that is impossible. Compare this to the fantasy hole you showed; no forward tees for the regular golfers - no safe option but to hit over the ridge. And much less clear way to know where to aim.
|
|
|
Post by beef on Feb 7, 2021 14:01:33 GMT -5
9 pages ? 9 pages on a subject that's been discussed numerous times over the past few years ? Blind shots have been a part of golf architecture and strategy since the games' inception. I can't remember the last time I played a course that didn't have at least one. Some aren't done particularly well and some are absolutely integral to the strategy of that particular hole and fit seamlessly into the routing and landscape.
Thinking 'blind shots are bad/bad design' is an incredibly silly line of thought.
|
|
|
Post by b101 on Feb 7, 2021 14:09:32 GMT -5
Nobody is trying to claim all blind shots are good, far from it - and I strongly suspect the courses or blind shots you have experienced are awfully done. But equally, nobody else is trying to claim all blind shots are good, other than you. Unless you are looking at when it's done well, this is a pointless discussion. I claim all blind shots are good?! I suspect you mean I claim all blindness are bad design? And that is false - clearly stated in the first post in this thread. I have two absolutes when it comes to blind shots, and that is I do not like complete blind tee shots, or complete blindness from all over the fairway.Yes, typo, my mistake. But, for crying out loud Anders. That is blind shots as everyone understands them. Being blind from off the fairway is not a designer creating a blind shot. You just don't get it. You are ignoring the topic and trying to argue semi blindness, not blindness. They are different.
|
|
|
Post by axelvonfersen on Feb 7, 2021 14:14:13 GMT -5
I feel this thread has run it's course.
|
|