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Post by xboxjonnyuk on Dec 27, 2020 13:21:26 GMT -5
Have to also say how much I agree with your comment about it being challenging and bringing you back. I’ve just spent two days really struggling and having a torrid time and shouting at the game and yet after 30 mins I’m back on the driving range and changing clubs trying anything to get it back. Just a joke but soon I’ll be categorised as a faster but that’s me trying to go for perfects 😂
Ok sorry to jump in but agreed wholeheartedly about that particular part of your pose 👍
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Post by zooby97 on Dec 27, 2020 14:54:00 GMT -5
What if HB, added in a threshold that if you swing "too fast" your digital golfer barely makes contact with the ball and it trickles forward like 15 yards or so? (For a drive.) That would definitely add some risk to the red-fast method. I could see it being an option added to master and legend difficulties default settings, with the option to toggle it on or off. Have to think of a fancy name for it like "True Shank" or something. Lol There is more punishment towards slows than fasts. That is the real issue and I’m have been playing since Oct 2020. For the most part the top players probably “fasts“ their drives to get that nice fairway lie. I still think approach shots and putting is where they have the edge on other players. I think my proximity average to the hole is like 27-30 feet. I wonder what the top players averages are? Some of the top 75 players are MC left and right and getting demotion marks. But I watch their play through ghost and UTube and they complained about the fasts but I see them using the fasts on their drives. They have to it if the want to make cuts....Again, terrific approach shots and putting is where to top shelf live.
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Post by charliehustle on Dec 27, 2020 17:28:39 GMT -5
What if HB, added in a threshold that if you swing "too fast" your digital golfer barely makes contact with the ball and it trickles forward like 15 yards or so? (For a drive.) That would definitely add some risk to the red-fast method. I could see it being an option added to master and legend difficulties default settings, with the option to toggle it on or off. Have to think of a fancy name for it like "True Shank" or something. Lol There is more punishment towards slows than fasts. That is the real issue and I’m have been playing since Oct 2020. For the most part the top players probably “fasts“ their drives to get that nice fairway lie. I still think approach shots and putting is where they have the edge on other players. I think my proximity average to the hole is like 27-30 feet. I wonder what the top players averages are? Some of the top 75 players are MC left and right and getting demotion marks. But I watch their play through ghost and UTube and they complained about the fasts but I see them using the fasts on their drives. They have to it if the want to make cuts....Again, terrific approach shots and putting is where to top shelf live. ..and most of that would still be true. What I was somewhat suggesting doesn't change any of that with the exception of slow tempo being the most punishing. It would just mean that one would have to have a little bit more finesse to achieve the fastest playable tempo. If one goes too hard then the punishment would be more severe than a very slow.
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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Dec 28, 2020 12:30:06 GMT -5
What if HB, added in a threshold that if you swing "too fast" your digital golfer barely makes contact with the ball and it trickles forward like 15 yards or so? (For a drive.) That would definitely add some risk to the red-fast method. I could see it being an option added to master and legend difficulties default settings, with the option to toggle it on or off. Have to think of a fancy name for it like "True Shank" or something. Lol This. Right. Here. At the moment, there's no punishment for going red fast off the tee, and that's not even close to realistic. You've got a 9 or 10 degree club that you are delivering to the ball with what should be a pretty closed club face relative to its path. it should curve a lot more than it does and dive to the ground, because it should have significantly less back spin than the ideal drive. There's no way you should see 300 yard drives in the fairway from a very fast, and arguably it shouldn't happen with a fast, either. Having said all that, there are many things that aren't realistic in the physics of the game. "Backspin" that goes in entirely the opposite direction to the spin of the ball in the air. Hitting a splash shots from the fairway or fringe because it's easier than a chip and OP as hell. Flop shots when there's nothing in the way because it's easier than a pitch. And so on, and so on.
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bigmike
Caddy
Posts: 61
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by bigmike on Dec 28, 2020 22:52:52 GMT -5
Having said all that, there are many things that aren't realistic in the physics of the game. "Backspin" that goes in entirely the opposite direction to the spin of the ball in the air. Hitting a splash shots from the fairway or fringe because it's easier than a chip and OP as hell. Flop shots when there's nothing in the way because it's easier than a pitch. And so on, and so on. This right here, don't nearly see as many people mad or throwing the word lazy around about not learning the "intricacies of the swing" when THESE are the methods that really shave strokes.
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Dec 28, 2020 23:08:37 GMT -5
What if HB, added in a threshold that if you swing "too fast" your digital golfer barely makes contact with the ball and it trickles forward like 15 yards or so? (For a drive.) That would definitely add some risk to the red-fast method. I could see it being an option added to master and legend difficulties default settings, with the option to toggle it on or off. Have to think of a fancy name for it like "True Shank" or something. Lol This. Right. Here. At the moment, there's no punishment for going red fast off the tee, and that's not even close to realistic. You've got a 9 or 10 degree club that you are delivering to the ball with what should be a pretty closed club face relative to its path. it should curve a lot more than it does and dive to the ground, because it should have significantly less back spin than the ideal drive. There's no way you should see 300 yard drives in the fairway from a very fast, and arguably it shouldn't happen with a fast, either. Having said all that, there are many things that aren't realistic in the physics of the game. "Backspin" that goes in entirely the opposite direction to the spin of the ball in the air. Hitting a splash shots from the fairway or fringe because it's easier than a chip and OP as hell. Flop shots when there's nothing in the way because it's easier than a pitch. And so on, and so on. Feel free to open threads about those. This one is about the red fast use.
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Post by mrohde4 on Dec 28, 2020 23:55:35 GMT -5
Having said all that, there are many things that aren't realistic in the physics of the game. "Backspin" that goes in entirely the opposite direction to the spin of the ball in the air. Hitting a splash shots from the fairway or fringe because it's easier than a chip and OP as hell. Flop shots when there's nothing in the way because it's easier than a pitch. And so on, and so on. This right here, don't nearly see as many people mad or throwing the word lazy around about not learning the "intricacies of the swing" when THESE are the methods that really shave strokes. Heres the difference Big Mike. For the weird unrealistic short game shots, you still have to execute. The Red Fast loophole neutered a very critical component of tempo execution on full shots. It’s a giggle and middle finger to the designers. Pathetic. Everything brought up by Amoebi are elements of the game included by the designers. Nobody is disagreeing that a golf game played on a computer from your couch isn’t realistic. It’s a fantasy land, a fake world. But the weird spins and mechanics of flops, splashes and the physics in general are intentionally a part of the game as intended by the designers. The Red Fasts, and especially those at 9:00, are mishits. Intentional attempts to circumvent the challenge of hitting a good shot. It’s obvious for many reasons, and LAZY. The Red Fast, at every difficulty level, is a failure in the eyes of this computer game emulating a sport. Sure, you can argue that the short game is really important for scoring, and you’d be right. But that’s not the point of all of this. Weird short game shots were included purpose and available for everyone everywhere on the course. If you want to say, “Well the Red Fast is a part of the game too so it’s fair game because that’s how the ball flies,” then fine, say that. But it clearly contradicts other swing mechanic and design elements of PGA 2K21. At least that’s how I see it, and I’m pretty sure others do too but won’t admit it. Shooting a “good” score and climbing an irrelevant leaderboard are just too important to actually play the game. There’s an incredible amount of golf video game entitlement where every shot must land exactly where the player wants. If you play in the beginner difficulty levels, are you actually using the Red Fast “strategy” with a straight face? Clearly the game is designed to challenge the player to hit the shots “perfectly.” There’s a reason that adjective is provided as feedback on every shot.
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Dec 29, 2020 0:05:04 GMT -5
Having said all that, there are many things that aren't realistic in the physics of the game. "Backspin" that goes in entirely the opposite direction to the spin of the ball in the air. Hitting a splash shots from the fairway or fringe because it's easier than a chip and OP as hell. Flop shots when there's nothing in the way because it's easier than a pitch. And so on, and so on. This right here, don't nearly see as many people mad or throwing the word lazy around about not learning the "intricacies of the swing" when THESE are the methods that really shave strokes. Using low forgiving clubs is hard to play. Using this method to go directly to very unforgiving clubs is what I mean when I point out lazy. The obvious one is the 294/295 Bridgestone Driver that is used the most with this method. Some players use more forgiving clubs downline and play for perfects. Anyone using this method can jump right to the 294/295 Driver. That is what is lazy as they aren't even trying to balance the risk/reward of that club choice. They know it has relatively consistent results and makes a mockery of the intended risk/reward curve intended by that club choice.
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bigmike
Caddy
Posts: 61
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by bigmike on Dec 29, 2020 2:00:52 GMT -5
I just must not being playing the same way that other "fast" players are, really shouldn't be missing as many FIR and GIR as I have been lol. Here's my thing- I'm just not going to accept others telling me how to play when I purchased this game and that I'm lazy for not playing their way. I picked up this game in September and joined the initial 2 week Q school. First experience playing master difficultly and mostly due to 3 and 4 putts I shot 85 and 75 in the first 2 rounds. Over the next 2 months, I played nothing else BUT this game. Countless hours I spent on the range and in practice rounds. I calibrated multiple times sometimes for very fast, fast, slightly fast and perfect. I experimented with playing for controlled fasts AND slows as well as perfects with every level of clubs. What I was becoming frustrated with is there seemed to be this element of randomness in tempo that didnt fairly represent the swing I put on the ball. I noticed that most of my misses were slightly fast and that this was the swing, with the way I hold the controller, that I could produce the most. So to eliminate the randomness of an extremely punitive slow tempo, I embraced a faster swing and would aim at a spot, and align right of that target. I learned the varying shapes of each fast with each club, and the varying shapes of playing fades and draws with a slightly fast. I calibrated for perfect so when I swing it's a controlled swing, there's still plenty of room for me to swing too fast. I still to this day miss left (too fast and very fast shank) and miss right (perfect). So I'm certainly not just mindlessly slamming the stick up as many seem to think. All the while I had zero idea that this was a common method that was looked down upon. I saw all kinds of shapes in ghost balls and without turn order on at the time didnt realize who was doing what as far whether that was a "draw" or a "fast".
My thing is, this is supposed to be fun. We're not playing for money. When you start throwing video game randomness at me just for the sake of making it artificially harder, that's not fun. And lo and behold it's been proven that even with a fixed input, the game generates random tempo outcomes, with the one on the right being way more punitive than the left. That's not cool. So I played the swing I can most consistently produce and the random "slow" will only have me hit a perfect.
I've never enjoyed a golf game this much in my life and at the same time I've never felt the frustration of a golf game so strongly yet so realistically as this one either. I still work almost every day to stay sharp and get better. If I knew any more about the intricacies of my swing I'd give you it's binary value lol. So if that's the experience you worry I'm missing out on, don't. So please cool it with the whole tossing around the lazy label.
Now are there some other "fast" players out there that arrived there differently or more quickly without trying other ways or have different motives or calibrate and swing harder? I'm certain there are. My thing is be careful how you throw out your blanket judgements. Again as I've said before this is a game, it's supposed to be fun. So play the game to the best of your ability and enjoyment. And it's ok if that's a different experience from person to person.
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Dec 29, 2020 2:30:16 GMT -5
I got called out very, very hard when my natural swing (a flick swing) was all of a sudden a bad "thing" back in TGC2019 and I made it known that I freely played that way. Before the first season of TGC2019 even started I decided that I would use my swing that I had always known until I got a strike because I felt (a bad opinion in retrospect) that until I was struck down by API that I was playing fine and legal. Once I got one API pull - my only one ever- (several months later over two different tours - PGA and TST - to be noted) I took time to change my swing as I came to realize I was playing an advantage. This applies to the red/fast in the same way that you are freely pointing out that the way you play is how you play. I get it. I cannot make anyone play differently, nor do I want to. I simply want to point out that from a TGCTours competition perspective that having a suspect circumvention of the intended way to swing has been called out in the past regularly, but now it is all of a sudden accepted just because it is a majority opinion way to play and I feel that is a shame.
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Dec 29, 2020 2:35:43 GMT -5
And lo and behold it's been proven that even with a fixed input, the game generates random tempo outcomes, I dispute this strongly on the PS4/5 console. Where are you basing this from? Edit: One person on PC/Steam playing artificial settings that cannot be replicated on consoles is not a fair comparison.
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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Dec 29, 2020 7:58:44 GMT -5
This right here, don't nearly see as many people mad or throwing the word lazy around about not learning the "intricacies of the swing" when THESE are the methods that really shave strokes. Heres the difference Big Mike. For the weird unrealistic short game shots, you still have to execute. The Red Fast loophole neutered a very critical component of tempo execution on full shots. It’s a giggle and middle finger to the designers. Pathetic. Everything brought up by Amoebi are elements of the game included by the designers. Nobody is disagreeing that a golf game played on a computer from your couch isn’t realistic. It’s a fantasy land, a fake world. But the weird spins and mechanics of flops, splashes and the physics in general are intentionally a part of the game as intended by the designers. The Red Fasts, and especially those at 9:00, are mishits. Intentional attempts to circumvent the challenge of hitting a good shot. It’s obvious for many reasons, and LAZY. The Red Fast, at every difficulty level, is a failure in the eyes of this computer game emulating a sport. Sure, you can argue that the short game is really important for scoring, and you’d be right. But that’s not the point of all of this. Weird short game shots were included purpose and available for everyone everywhere on the course. If you want to say, “Well the Red Fast is a part of the game too so it’s fair game because that’s how the ball flies,” then fine, say that. But it clearly contradicts other swing mechanic and design elements of PGA 2K21. At least that’s how I see it, and I’m pretty sure others do too but won’t admit it. Shooting a “good” score and climbing an irrelevant leaderboard are just too important to actually play the game. There’s an incredible amount of golf video game entitlement where every shot must land exactly where the player wants. If you play in the beginner difficulty levels, are you actually using the Red Fast “strategy” with a straight face? Clearly the game is designed to challenge the player to hit the shots “perfectly.” There’s a reason that adjective is provided as feedback on every shot. I'll say it. I don't like that the red fast strategy works. But "Well the Red Fast is a part of the game too so it’s fair game because that’s how the ball flies." In my opinion, it's up to HB and 2K to patch their game so this strategy doesn't work, and I hope that they do. But the history of video games is littered with people "breaking the game" by finding exploits.
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Post by mrohde4 on Dec 29, 2020 10:02:42 GMT -5
I just must not being playing the same way that other "fast" players are, really shouldn't be missing as many FIR and GIR as I have been lol. Here's my thing- I'm just not going to accept others telling me how to play when I purchased this game and that I'm lazy for not playing their way. I picked up this game in September and joined the initial 2 week Q school. First experience playing master difficultly and mostly due to 3 and 4 putts I shot 85 and 75 in the first 2 rounds. Over the next 2 months, I played nothing else BUT this game. Countless hours I spent on the range and in practice rounds. I calibrated multiple times sometimes for very fast, fast, slightly fast and perfect. I experimented with playing for controlled fasts AND slows as well as perfects with every level of clubs. What I was becoming frustrated with is there seemed to be this element of randomness in tempo that didnt fairly represent the swing I put on the ball. I noticed that most of my misses were slightly fast and that this was the swing, with the way I hold the controller, that I could produce the most. So to eliminate the randomness of an extremely punitive slow tempo, I embraced a faster swing and would aim at a spot, and align right of that target. I learned the varying shapes of each fast with each club, and the varying shapes of playing fades and draws with a slightly fast. I calibrated for perfect so when I swing it's a controlled swing, there's still plenty of room for me to swing too fast. I still to this day miss left (too fast and very fast shank) and miss right (perfect). So I'm certainly not just mindlessly slamming the stick up as many seem to think. All the while I had zero idea that this was a common method that was looked down upon. I saw all kinds of shapes in ghost balls and without turn order on at the time didnt realize who was doing what as far whether that was a "draw" or a "fast". My thing is, this is supposed to be fun. We're not playing for money. When you start throwing video game randomness at me just for the sake of making it artificially harder, that's not fun. And lo and behold it's been proven that even with a fixed input, the game generates random tempo outcomes, with the one on the right being way more punitive than the left. That's not cool. So I played the swing I can most consistently produce and the random "slow" will only have me hit a perfect. I've never enjoyed a golf game this much in my life and at the same time I've never felt the frustration of a golf game so strongly yet so realistically as this one either. I still work almost every day to stay sharp and get better. If I knew any more about the intricacies of my swing I'd give you it's binary value lol. So if that's the experience you worry I'm missing out on, don't. So please cool it with the whole tossing around the lazy label. Now are there some other "fast" players out there that arrived there differently or more quickly without trying other ways or have different motives or calibrate and swing harder? I'm certain there are. My thing is be careful how you throw out your blanket judgements. Again as I've said before this is a game, it's supposed to be fun. So play the game to the best of your ability and enjoyment. And it's ok if that's a different experience from person to person. I truly appreciate your opening up about your experience thus far. You’re new here, so maybe it’ll help to understand some of us have been recognizing and writing about various cheats and loopholes for several years now. That being said, playing for a Perfect is the game’s core design very clearly and not a faction of the community’s “way” of playing the game. The so-called ‘judgements’ against the Red Fast aren’t based on personal degradations, rather they’re objective conclusions based on the game and its elements. Can you honestly say that you’d use the Red Fast strategy in the Beginner/Pro-Am difficulty level? And maybe it’s the cynic in me, but you didn’t recognize the cheesiness when all of a sudden you could narrow your shot’s landing area by manipulating the mechanic? I assume you started playing the game at a lower level and worked your way up, so it’s hard to believe that these eureka moments weren’t accompanied by some level of sheepishness. We got dudes aiming 30 yards right in the MIDDLE OF A LAKE, and then slamming the stick forward for a mishit that comes to rest within ten feet. And to be clear, there are different levels of Red Fast abuse. What gets me is the streamers playing in the higher pro tours who have abandoned any and all attempts at Perfect/Gray for the Red zone. That’s not the game, it’s just not and trust me that’s not a knock on anyone’s personal beliefs, it’s simply stating facts based on four iterations of this series in which three used a tempo mechanic.
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mega8deth8
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 107
Tour: Platinum
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Post by mega8deth8 on Dec 29, 2020 10:13:05 GMT -5
This is how my quest for hitting perfect is going. I just got off of Greenstone River GC practicing for next weeks Kinetic Tournament. One of the back 9 par 3s is about 150 yds on a cliffside with water to the left. I hit a fast 9 iron and in the drink I go. So I'm back on the tee hitting 3 and smack a perfect that holes out for par. Same swing, but vastly different results. It's like there is a water magnet attached to the ball. And that's my story of a quest for perfect.
I'm not trying for perfects due to some ridiculous gamers code or whatever. I don't care who uses what swing. I'm just trying to put another tool in my bag to use with certain winds and lies.
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Post by mrohde4 on Dec 29, 2020 10:20:14 GMT -5
This is how my quest for hitting perfect is going. I just got off of Greenstone River GC practicing for next weeks Kinetic Tournament. One of the back 9 par 3s is about 150 yds on a cliffside with water to the left. I hit a fast 9 iron and in the drink I go. So I'm back on the tee hitting 3 and smack a perfect that holes out for par. Same swing, but vastly different results. It's like there is a water magnet attached to the ball. And that's my story of a quest for perfect. I'm not trying for perfects due to some ridiculous gamers code or whatever. I don't care who uses what swing. I'm just trying to put another tool in my bag to use with certain winds and lies. So are modified controllers ok? Straight shooting third party controllers? Scripts? At some point you care about others players swings, surely. It’s a hard game at the Master level. Not for everybody.
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