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Post by nevadaballin on Mar 12, 2015 15:16:10 GMT -5
Nevada, for what it's worth, Anthony and I have already been tossing around this exact idea in an email thread :-)... How does a wind indicator that shows direction and strength (Calm, Med, Windy, Gusty) sound instead of an exact number? Of course, this would be optional and a Tournament/Tour setting, not for everyone. I don't mind that either, we'd need to know what range each of those cover just so we get that "feels like 10-15 mph" experience. Everything else in golf is based on sight except this, where the human skin probably plays it's biggest role. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Mar 12, 2015 15:29:45 GMT -5
This is how easy it is to putt with no grid, and how you can read the green. It is so simple, doesn't take very long, and will easily balance out those low scoring events. The top players will be true top players, and so forth. I am not a great putter, because i need so much more practice, but the guys that are - really stand out. Here is my quick video just to show how easy it is to do so. I purposely lowered my resolution and settings to 1280x720 to make it more blurry so those who say they can't read greens, have no excuse. Other than waiting for April, or for HB to do their thing, this is something you can control right now. Just food for thought: I take issue with "it doesn't take too long". If someone averages 3 minutes analyzing each putt. If... IF.... someone were to one putt every hole, that's 54 minutes of playing time alone just on those putts. For us mortals, one putting every hole isn't going to happen  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 15:33:45 GMT -5
Scores in this game will NEVER match those that are shot on the actual PGA and EURO courses unless all aids are taken off. And then THAT opens up a whole new bag of complaints. Let's remember something, this game hasn't even been out a year (let's give them time) and HB Studios can't cater to the top 10%. TGCTours is that top 10%. Our best players are the top 1%. They are going to shoot scores in the 56-60 range fairly often. It's just the nature of the beast. Couldn't disagree more. With minimal effort you can make a course that you struggle to shoot even par on with all aids on. With the fabulous course designers we have, it's absolutely possible to make very interesting, fun, difficult courses that fall into scoring range of the the real players. That's the best part of this game, it's all in the hands of the designers If it takes such "minimal effort" to achieve that, why hasn't it been done yet? |
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Post by Pubknight on Mar 12, 2015 15:36:39 GMT -5
I take issue with "it doesn't take too long". If someone averages 3 minutes analyzing each putt. If... IF.... someone were to one putt every hole, that's 54 minutes of playing time alone just on those putts. For us mortals, one putting every hole isn't going to happen have to agree with that. at 3+ minutes to read a relatively simple putt, that's just no longer fun. There has to be a balance. |
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Post by Dennis on Mar 12, 2015 16:06:12 GMT -5
Setting a wind range is a good idea, but it will not have much effect on scores. 6-10 mph range? Set up for 8mph wind, most you can miss by is 2mph, and that 2mph miss will happen approx 33% of the time, the other 67% will be 1mph miss or less, having virtually no effect on your scores. I think that's just enough to make a difference because an accurate shot is based on good math. Obviously most people will aim for the middle number, i knew that when I thought of it. I think that 2 mph is just enough to make a difference. Add in that nobody can hit a dead on 12/6 analog swing every shot (nobody does that, right?) and you've got a good recipe going. Then add the elevation one - it goes hand in hand with the wind.. Go ahead and middle that too. If you want to talk odds, the odds are there won't be too many times when someone gets the perfect shot with a middle selection all the time. It's kind of the same odds as hitting a hole in one, maybe slightly better.... maybe. Also, the increments could be changed, 5 mph isn't set in stone. It could be 6 or 7. I think this is the direction that a lot of people will embrace. There was an earlier post talking about how to set up the course with rolling slopes, length, speed and firmness. I love his idea and have been saying this to myself all along. No need to get crazy with multiple huge tiers and super fast greens and very narrow fairways. No need for all that. Play TPC Scottsdale in a little wind. There are ways to make a course with bite but make it playable. I shot that course to a -6 both rounds. Not a great score by any means. But, me being new to this game I love that type of challenge. And over time I will get better at long, fast green speed and slopes. Once I got used to it on Tw game I could play a course like that to 3, 4, or 5 under with all aids off. So to me that is a better representation of the type of scores we should be seeing in most tournaments. Again, no need to make silly courses just to bring the scores down. Good courses will do that on their own. Med. soft with fast speed, slopes and a nice length. |
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Post by Dennis on Mar 12, 2015 16:08:15 GMT -5
If you want the scores to go up just hit the ball more times per round.  lmao. Now you got it. |
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Post by jeffvadersith on Mar 12, 2015 17:49:09 GMT -5
Personally I think tougher courses need to be picked, especially ones that require shot shaping etc. I am completely against removing guides. In this particular this thread it seems like everyone wants to get rid of as many guides as possible, but i really dont think that view would be supported by the majority. Matt10, you 'lowered' your resolution to 1280 x 720 but thats still better than what i play on. I think its easier if you have a high def monitor. I play on a projector screen, and without green guides everything looks completely flat. I would have to quit with no guides! |
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 12, 2015 17:59:34 GMT -5
Couldn't disagree more. With minimal effort you can make a course that you struggle to shoot even par on with all aids on. With the fabulous course designers we have, it's absolutely possible to make very interesting, fun, difficult courses that fall into scoring range of the the real players. That's the best part of this game, it's all in the hands of the designers If it takes such "minimal effort" to achieve that, why hasn't it been done yet? Because most course designers do not know how real championship greens are. And they are told by those who do not know that the greens have to be subtle and flat in a 3 ft radius around the cup. On a real championship course, if you leave the ball on the wrong side of the hole, you can't get it to stay within 10 ft on the hole unless you hit the cup. But some people don't think the reality is fair. They want to be able to drain 20 footers like they are 5 footers, which is completely not reality. To each their own, I just feel if you are going to have multiple tiers, the top tier should be playing on difficult courses. That's golf. |
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 12, 2015 18:26:22 GMT -5
That's around what I was thinking. Speaking of if you guys would like to play the first 7 holes of my US Open course to help me get an idea of scores I'd appreciate it. It's named TGCT-USOPEN2 That's for the normal tourneys. The opens should have a final winning score around even par. That is how they try to setup for the real life tourneys For real life that works but not TGCT. If we have the best players in the game shooting about even then the cut line will be like +15 and I don't think anyone wants to see that. |
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 12, 2015 18:33:59 GMT -5
I don't mean to Spock out, but where is the logic in naming tours After real ones(PGA, euro, etc..), if you're not going to try and replicate the experience. I shoot in the 70's when i play a public course, and shoot mid to high 80's on a championship course. I'll choose the championship course every time. I don't understand the mentality of wanting the easier
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 18:52:07 GMT -5
If it takes such "minimal effort" to achieve that, why hasn't it been done yet? Because most course designers do not know how real championship greens are. And they are told by those who do not know that the greens have to be subtle and flat in a 3 ft radius around the cup. On a real championship course, if you leave the ball on the wrong side of the hole, you can't get it to stay within 10 ft on the hole unless you hit the cup. But some people don't think the reality is fair. They want to be able to drain 20 footers like they are 5 footers, which is completely not reality. To each their own, I just feel if you are going to have multiple tiers, the top tier should be playing on difficult courses. That's golf. I can't wait to play the Championship course that you must be working on. Especially since you've surveyed so many designers and know that THEY don't know how actual courses should be set up...and that you also know that THEY have been told incorrectly how a pin should be placed. |
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Post by mcbogga on Mar 12, 2015 18:59:34 GMT -5
Personally I think tougher courses need to be picked, especially ones that require shot shaping etc. I am completely against removing guides. In this particular this thread it seems like everyone wants to get rid of as many guides as possible, but i really dont think that view would be supported by the majority. Matt10, you 'lowered' your resolution to 1280 x 720 but thats still better than what i play on. I think its easier if you have a high def monitor. I play on a projector screen, and without green guides everything looks completely flat. I would have to quit with no guides! That putt looked heavy right to left on the (bad) no grid picture as well. I think that people who say it looks flat just have not learnt how to look yet.... Then I also think Matt took a long time to miss that putt in the video. Quick look from behind hole - both sides - behind ball and you have a decent read in 5 sec most of the time. If not it's usually a quite flat putt. Also wind meter us perfectly fine without any color coding. Not too hard to get a read after first couple shots and easy to notice when it is gusting. In real life you never know the wind - plenty of holes where it blows on direction on tee an another at the green. So the whole "feeling" the wind IRL is just not very true imo. At least not if you hit fairly high and long golf shots. More about looking at the flag and making educated guesses I think, quite the same as the game without wind speed display. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Mar 12, 2015 19:12:46 GMT -5
That's for the normal tourneys. The opens should have a final winning score around even par. That is how they try to setup for the real life tourneys For real life that works but not TGCT. If we have the best players in the game shooting about even then the cut line will be like +15 and I don't think anyone wants to see that. Allow me to repeat myself from earlier: >> I think people understand that no matter what is done, the leaders will be the leaders. I believe what is really desired is for our leader's scores not obliterate the real world scores so badly... lol |
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Post by Matt10 on Mar 12, 2015 20:46:13 GMT -5
Personally I think tougher courses need to be picked, especially ones that require shot shaping etc. I am completely against removing guides. In this particular this thread it seems like everyone wants to get rid of as many guides as possible, but i really dont think that view would be supported by the majority. Matt10, you 'lowered' your resolution to 1280 x 720 but thats still better than what i play on. I think its easier if you have a high def monitor. I play on a projector screen, and without green guides everything looks completely flat. I would have to quit with no guides! That putt looked heavy right to left on the (bad) no grid picture as well. I think that people who say it looks flat just have not learnt how to look yet.... Then I also think Matt took a long time to miss that putt in the video. Quick look from behind hole - both sides - behind ball and you have a decent read in 5 sec most of the time. If not it's usually a quite flat putt. Also wind meter us perfectly fine without any color coding. Not too hard to get a read after first couple shots and easy to notice when it is gusting. In real life you never know the wind - plenty of holes where it blows on direction on tee an another at the green. So the whole "feeling" the wind IRL is just not very true imo. At least not if you hit fairly high and long golf shots. More about looking at the flag and making educated guesses I think, quite the same as the game without wind speed display. Oh, I missed that putt bad. I was doing it live, wasn't going to gloss over the fact that it's difficult, and then voice over a putt that I actually make . The irony is my video is proof that just like IRL, we miss those straight putts. We over-read and we miss it. But that is a contribution to not playing the course and just poor execution. This is why I'm not a great player, but if guys want the quickest, most effective, way to get scores to look more realistic - then no grid is the way. Keep the other aides, whatever - no grids is the way. Btw, this picture posted is basically a slap in the face. Show the same picture with the putting camera in use - and you can actually read the green. On that particular one, you can tell how much higher the fringe is on the right - right above the "scout camera" indicator. Now you just have to figure out speed by using the putting camera and see if it's going downhill or uphill. I really struggle understanding the mentality here as well. First, we say we want to make rounds tougher - to increase the scores...yet, we don't want to spend a decent amount of time playing the game. I mean...if you make the courses tougher...aren't you going to have guys spending more time trying to get the ball in the hole anyways??? Won't that take just as long as taking time to read a couple of putts? Which is more rewarding? Better for the game? Ask yourself that question before you go shooting down legitimate, proven...suggestions. |
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 12, 2015 21:19:28 GMT -5
Because most course designers do not know how real championship greens are. And they are told by those who do not know that the greens have to be subtle and flat in a 3 ft radius around the cup. On a real championship course, if you leave the ball on the wrong side of the hole, you can't get it to stay within 10 ft on the hole unless you hit the cup. But some people don't think the reality is fair. They want to be able to drain 20 footers like they are 5 footers, which is completely not reality. To each their own, I just feel if you are going to have multiple tiers, the top tier should be playing on difficult courses. That's golf. I can't wait to play the Championship course that you must be working on. Especially since you've surveyed so many designers and know that THEY don't know how actual courses should be set up...and that you also know that THEY have been told incorrectly how a pin should be placed. For an administrator, you don't read the forums much I guess. And the proof is sure in the courses we've played. Oh well, if administrators have no desire to make this tour more like the real one, it's time for me to move on. Difference of opinion and I'm burned out from the circle jerk everyone birdies 75% of the holes tourneys. I'll just play the no aids tour as they at least want some form of realism. Anyway, take care |
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