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Post by mrohde4 on Feb 27, 2020 21:37:04 GMT -5
First off - I just want to say I'm extremely disappointed we're in this position. It really sucks and is not at all what we want to be doing here at TGC Tours. We're trying to make the best out of a very crappy situation. So here is the biggest issue. Jeff and I were just looking at the data for the Euro and Web this week (first time I've had a chance to look into those tours) and we are finding a lot of people that are missing the cone regularly. Many of these people are shooting what I would call average scores (mid-60's). There are so many people that have swings that miss the cone but are probably not aware of how to take advantage of it as well as has been documented here. There are only a handful below the PGA that are using the push/pull with any success. Heck there are only a handful in the PGA using it (currently). It's a real mess - to the worst degree. Any policing we do will undoubtedly scoop up many (thinking 25-50 people on Euro/Web alone). That is an incredibly large number of people that would require tickets and support. Many of whom are not even sniffing rounds in the 50's. We have no good options. I know I've been pro-policing - but the data from the Web and European tours is telling me they can't be included. It's just too many people included with only an extreme small fraction of them finding the top 10's on leaderboards. So we're left with - again, status quo or policing PGA only. Neither option even close to optimal. It makes me upset we're in this position after we had such a good run with TGC1 (and to a lesser extent TGC2). Why is only policing PGA sub optimal? And couldn’t strong communications and announcements help in getting the word out? #bluechannel2020
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Post by Doyley on Feb 27, 2020 21:40:41 GMT -5
Why is only policing PGA sub optimal? 1. accusations of stealing wins/promotions on the tours below PGA 2. majority of people have no idea that there is an advantage to push/pull swings (heck, most of us didn't for the first 1.5 years) - work their way up the tours and then once on PGA they are Fair Play'd into oblivion Most of the issues will come from the other 8 tours basically.
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Post by CuseHokie on Feb 27, 2020 22:05:12 GMT -5
Why is only policing PGA sub optimal? 1. accusations of stealing wins/promotions on the tours below PGA 2. majority of people have no idea that there is an advantage to push/pull swings (heck, most of us didn't for the first 1.5 years) - work their way up the tours and then once on PGA they are Fair Play'd into oblivion Most of the issues will come from the other 8 tours basically. Can you add more vertical bands (expand the range) at least for lower level tours? Might that help?
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Post by Doyley on Feb 27, 2020 22:28:27 GMT -5
1. accusations of stealing wins/promotions on the tours below PGA 2. majority of people have no idea that there is an advantage to push/pull swings (heck, most of us didn't for the first 1.5 years) - work their way up the tours and then once on PGA they are Fair Play'd into oblivion Most of the issues will come from the other 8 tours basically. Can you add more vertical bands (expand the range) at least for lower level tours? Might that help? Expanding it further for lower tours will not really solve the issue as we'll just give more space for the push/pull swingers to execute their swings legally - to the point where the ones actually benefiting from it most may not even be flagged. My initial dive into the numbers shows me this is not a major concern on the tours below PGA. There are people that are successfully using it, but it's really like 1 in 20 from what I see. Those guys will promote up (where I say people will be disappointed with stolen wins/promo marks) and eventually land in PGA where they'll have to all of a sudden comply with a Fair Play rule they will most likely never know existed until they are pulled the first time.
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Post by booze2407 on Feb 27, 2020 22:59:51 GMT -5
I would still say just PGA is better than nothing, those who advance up with that swing will just have to learn about it when they get here...if they aren’t already aware. Not gonna lie, I haven’t the slightest clue how to interpret these charts lol, so whatever the admins decide I’m fine with. fadgewacker I could be mistaken, but I think I just jumped up 2 spots in the leaderboard.. I’m pretty sure I saw earlier a very repeat offender in the top 30 and now they are gone. But if I’m right there’s another out there. 🤔 edit - I must be wrong on the repeat offender, looks like they may not be in pga anymore. Maybe im also wrong about moving up lol, could’ve sworn I was 32 though. Sorry if this is a false alarm.
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Post by GW_Hope on Feb 28, 2020 1:46:52 GMT -5
I would still say just PGA is better than nothing, those who advance up with that swing will just have to learn about it when they get here...if they aren’t already aware. Not gonna lie, I haven’t the slightest clue how to interpret these charts lol, so whatever the admins decide I’m fine with. fadgewacker I could be mistaken, but I think I just jumped up 2 spots in the leaderboard.. I’m pretty sure I saw earlier a very repeat offender in the top 30 and now they are gone. But if I’m right there’s another out there. 🤔 edit - I must be wrong on the repeat offender, looks like they may not be in pga anymore. Maybe im also wrong about moving up lol, could’ve sworn I was 32 though. Sorry if this is a false alarm. Is his memory slipping?
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 28, 2020 1:55:34 GMT -5
I would still say just PGA is better than nothing, those who advance up with that swing will just have to learn about it when they get here...if they aren’t already aware. Not gonna lie, I haven’t the slightest clue how to interpret these charts lol, so whatever the admins decide I’m fine with. fadgewacker I could be mistaken, but I think I just jumped up 2 spots in the leaderboard.. I’m pretty sure I saw earlier a very repeat offender in the top 30 and now they are gone. But if I’m right there’s another out there. 🤔 edit - I must be wrong on the repeat offender, looks like they may not be in pga anymore. Maybe im also wrong about moving up lol, could’ve sworn I was 32 though. Sorry if this is a false alarm. Is his memory slipping? No, he’s in bed 🤓
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 28, 2020 2:01:30 GMT -5
I would still say just PGA is better than nothing, those who advance up with that swing will just have to learn about it when they get here...if they aren’t already aware. Not gonna lie, I haven’t the slightest clue how to interpret these charts lol, so whatever the admins decide I’m fine with. fadgewacker I could be mistaken, but I think I just jumped up 2 spots in the leaderboard.. I’m pretty sure I saw earlier a very repeat offender in the top 30 and now they are gone. But if I’m right there’s another out there. 🤔 edit - I must be wrong on the repeat offender, looks like they may not be in pga anymore. Maybe im also wrong about moving up lol, could’ve sworn I was 32 though. Sorry if this is a false alarm. Is his memory slipping? Very observant, young one. The force is strong in you! 2 more gone overnight, so 5 up for the week. Our second favourite (?) Japanese looks to have taken himself off to the BCT. I’m sure they’ll be delighted to have him there... it does look like he managed to rack up ANOTHER DQ before me he went though, taking him to 6 for the season and a grand total of 8 (I’ll need to confirm this, but my night watchman is usually pretty reliable). Regardless, Sayonara, for keeps this time. [edit] Seems it's so bad, Momo has moved to Indonesia! In other news, whether the Hollis over here, or the Hollis over there, something has gone wrong en route for the second time this season 😐
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Post by rob4590 on Feb 28, 2020 2:47:36 GMT -5
Why is only policing PGA sub optimal? 1. accusations of stealing wins/promotions on the tours below PGA 2. majority of people have no idea that there is an advantage to push/pull swings (heck, most of us didn't for the first 1.5 years) - work their way up the tours and then once on PGA they are Fair Play'd into oblivion Most of the issues will come from the other 8 tours basically.
I vote for policing it on PGA only then, if it is going to cause major ticketing issues on Euro / Web. Something NEEDS to be done in PGA for sure - if only cos I (and I'm sure most other players) don't want 30 page arguments each week!
However - in terms of people not knowing about it and then DQ-ing once they get to PGA - can I suggest the following (most of which are obvious anyway)
1) Stickied threads in both Euro and Web sub-sections. Can even add the sticky message into the OP of their weekly threads......
2) In game messages (each week) about it in the Euro and Web (and PGA) societies (referring them to the stickies here)
3) If you have the API emails going out automatically for fails currently, then can't you set it up (for Euro / Web) that what would be a PGA fail due to push / pulls generates a different email warning them that such a swing pattern would lead to a DQ in PGA - and suggesting they try and swing in the cone? 4) On the promo emails (from Euro to PGA) - make it really obvious that the push / pull DQs will be in effect in PGA 5) Anyone who is on positive promo marks in Euro receives an info email each week with that information (as they are potentially close to a promo) 6) Give a 2-3-4 week 'grace period' from now - where anyone who fails the push / pull API (in PGA) doesn't get DQ-ed, but does receive an email telling them they would fail it in a month's time - at least then guys like Dax, Adam, Stephen can actually have some time to work on their swing (whereas those who don't care about the rules will simply ignore it - the same as several of them do now re the flicking and get DQ-ed regularly already)
All the last four can surely be set to be automatic, thus not giving you guys (much) extra work?
7) One which might cause a bit of extra work - send an email to any PGA player who would have failed push / pull API in the last couple of weeks, and also to any PGA player who would be close to failing. No specifics, but just a friendly notification advising that they will potentially have issues going forward unless they change something.
One question - where does a swing that shows in game as 99% straight(ish) up the cone, but then goes 90 degrees sharp left / right at the very top register with the API?
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Feb 28, 2020 4:50:36 GMT -5
Yep, just because you can't do everything doesn't mean you shouldn't do something.
Grateful to the admins for recognising it as an issue if nothing else.
There's a certain irony that we're now going to be pulling people for not hitting it straight enough - very much feels like we've gone full circle in 5 years
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 28, 2020 6:39:17 GMT -5
Yep, just because you can't do everything doesn't mean you shouldn't do something.
Grateful to the admins for recognising it as an issue if nothing else.
There's a certain irony that we're now going to be pulling people for not hitting it straight enough - very much feels like we've gone full circle in 5 years It does, but only if you don't fully understand the API (and many truly don't, nor should be expected to need to), as hitting it straight is fine. Hitting it straight, but with robotic, inhuman repeatability is what will get you into trouble. Unless you've got Looper's magic thumbs (my favourite statement of all time, may I add - I loved that one), or are short swinging, or are using a really nice 3rd party pad and scraping by, or have a controller that is malfunctioning, or have a calibration issue with the mapping of your pad on PC, or something... you'll be just fine
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 28, 2020 6:41:11 GMT -5
1. accusations of stealing wins/promotions on the tours below PGA 2. majority of people have no idea that there is an advantage to push/pull swings (heck, most of us didn't for the first 1.5 years) - work their way up the tours and then once on PGA they are Fair Play'd into oblivion Most of the issues will come from the other 8 tours basically.
I vote for policing it on PGA only then, if it is going to cause major ticketing issues on Euro / Web. Something NEEDS to be done in PGA for sure - if only cos I (and I'm sure most other players) don't want 30 page arguments each week!
However - in terms of people not knowing about it and then DQ-ing once they get to PGA - can I suggest the following (most of which are obvious anyway)
1) Stickied threads in both Euro and Web sub-sections. Can even add the sticky message into the OP of their weekly threads......
2) In game messages (each week) about it in the Euro and Web (and PGA) societies (referring them to the stickies here)
3) If you have the API emails going out automatically for fails currently, then can't you set it up (for Euro / Web) that what would be a PGA fail due to push / pulls generates a different email warning them that such a swing pattern would lead to a DQ in PGA - and suggesting they try and swing in the cone? 4) On the promo emails (from Euro to PGA) - make it really obvious that the push / pull DQs will be in effect in PGA 5) Anyone who is on positive promo marks in Euro receives an info email each week with that information (as they are potentially close to a promo) 6) Give a 2-3-4 week 'grace period' from now - where anyone who fails the push / pull API (in PGA) doesn't get DQ-ed, but does receive an email telling them they would fail it in a month's time - at least then guys like Dax, Adam, Stephen can actually have some time to work on their swing (whereas those who don't care about the rules will simply ignore it - the same as several of them do now re the flicking and get DQ-ed regularly already)
All the last four can surely be set to be automatic, thus not giving you guys (much) extra work?
7) One which might cause a bit of extra work - send an email to any PGA player who would have failed push / pull API in the last couple of weeks, and also to any PGA player who would be close to failing. No specifics, but just a friendly notification advising that they will potentially have issues going forward unless they change something.
One question - where does a swing that shows in game as 99% straight(ish) up the cone, but then goes 90 degrees sharp left / right at the very top register with the API?
Really good options Rob. I was going to suggest Just doing it for Euro and PGA... Leaving out KF, but making as clear as possible.... (see above post)
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Post by donkeypuncherben on Feb 28, 2020 6:51:25 GMT -5
What about TST? Much bigger variety of talent playing together but also close approach shots are an even bigger advantage without a green grid...
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Post by rob4590 on Feb 28, 2020 6:58:09 GMT -5
What about TST? Much bigger variety of talent playing together but also close approach shots are an even bigger advantage without a green grid...
Not been discussed in the TST admin forums as yet Ben. But given we already have a stricter policy on API and DNF's than the main tours, safe to say people won't be able to abuse the system in TST.......
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Post by CuseHokie on Feb 28, 2020 9:04:13 GMT -5
I agree with the others that something has to be done. I don't think the worry of a few players who happen to get promoted to PGA that are exhibiting this swing should trump not acting at all. Failing to act will de-legitimize the tour even more and impact its long-term sustainability. We're seeing people turn in their cards (and I'm guessing any future donations). I would say many of us have seized donations because little has been done to combat the abuse in TGC2019. When the so-called "number one player in the World" cannot participate anymore, that says enough about the current state of things. Now we have this? Many of us had suspected things with the swing for a while - big props to Z3NZ for really bringing this to the community's attention. I'll happily pledge a donation if we take a stand on this issue.
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