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Post by CuseHokie on Feb 27, 2020 16:11:03 GMT -5
I hope the admin delve a little deeper into the api. My worry is someone will start mixing up their shots a bit to try and 'fool' you guys but in the end, looking at that chart, if 90+% of their drives/approach shots are in a couple sectors around that blue line, it seems to me that is pretty obvious. A normal chart as shown by Doyley before has swings all over the place from both sides of center. That being said I really am sorry then for those people who have been using this method and say I feel your pain if you have to change your swing. It took me over 3 months when this game came out to get a swing down, because mouse players couldn't take a full swing, they had to pull back just a little bit, hold and then push forward. It was painful. Then just as I started doing well with that swing, they fixed the mouse swing and I had to take another 3 months and figure it out all over again. It sucked. I think extra focus should be put on approach shots. Basically non-driver shots.
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Post by searchingforthegains on Feb 27, 2020 18:03:05 GMT -5
So if this is going to start being enforced here are my questions:
Will it only apply to drives and approaches or also putting as well? (People with the natural swing line also push/pull their putts not sure if there is any advantage doing it during putting). I assume it would cause if they have to change their swing to straight, i assume they would start putting straight.
Will it be a certain percentage throughout the tournament or on a round by round basis? (swing might be off in a certain round)
Will it also be enforced in promotional events where PGA, EURO, and KF tour cards are available to the top placers?
Will it be enforced if the CC-A winner is using this swing (they would be promoted to the KF)?
Will players on the top 3 tours who dont care about swing lines/cant hit straight shots for whatever reason be allowed to take voluntary demotions to the CC-A? (this could make it hard for new players to get on the top 3 tours if its not being enforced on the CC level)
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Post by BillySastard976 on Feb 27, 2020 18:22:47 GMT -5
I don't envy the admins of this great site.
Let's hope HB for once do something, it's their game which is seriously flawed, and save a lot of hassle here.
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LFCallum
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 122
TGCT Name: Callum Hutchinson
Tour: PGA
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Post by LFCallum on Feb 27, 2020 19:18:25 GMT -5
Reading this thread has me confused but I'm just happy with my best performance of the year so far tbh. -13, -13, -13, -7(eugh). -46 total should see me top 30 I'm guessing. Was hitting very straight (by my standards). Missed like 3 fairways the whole tournament. Also putted fantastic for the most part (until the last round). Nice course.
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Post by CuseHokie on Feb 27, 2020 19:37:42 GMT -5
This is my chart from the -21 I shot in early 2019 at Kapalua. I was told this is what a normal chart should look like. I had a few off the chart right, likely some tee shots where I played for fast and slammed the stick forward. Wide fairways there that allow you some space to do that. Video link:
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Post by mrohde4 on Feb 27, 2020 20:25:21 GMT -5
This is my chart from the -21 I shot in early 2019 at Kapalua.Β I was told this is what a normal chart should look like.Β I had a few off the chart right, likely some tee shots where I played for fast and slammed the stick forward.Β Wide fairways there that allow you some space to do that.Β Β Video link: Itβs remarkable to think about the compilation of data generated and stored at this site over the last five years. A bunch of idiots playing golf.
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Post by Doyley on Feb 27, 2020 20:32:59 GMT -5
Cuse's chart is what the majority of TGCT - from top to bottom, looks like. There's a wide variety of swings on both sides of the axis (basically a dead straight shot would be between his two dark orange data points and would show up as Red - those are not good - you don't want to see Red or else the API police may start knockin')
It's not uncommon for some to be all left or all right - but the vast majority of those still find themselves with multiple data points on the chart.
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Post by materialization on Feb 27, 2020 20:39:32 GMT -5
Interesting stuff, can anyone admin put up my 2 rounds at the Euro? I only ask because 1) I don't mind if people see and 2) I've just switched to PS4 and I'm practically a newbie at using the controller so you'd probably get a fair idea from that as a less accurate one that 'hopefully' would remain within the new proposed limits.
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Post by Doyley on Feb 27, 2020 20:41:35 GMT -5
Doyley , can you post my 4th round API? I'm sure it isn't good, but I'm tired of the battle. Let everyone see including me. ππ Edit: Also, I've been playing this bullshit pull long before Master Z put up some video that I've not given a sh%$ to watch. I was also playing that same bullshit pull long before y'all said I'm "gaining an andvantage". At least I posted a video of my round that matters and a video of me trying to hit one "straight" that still is a pull. ππ It wasn't your 4th - believe I took your 3rd round - but it wouldn't have mattered as all your rounds this week looked the same. Yours was the one I posted earlier today.
To fix the issue you must get the end of the white line into the cone (I posted this earlier today). It's the most important part of the swing line (the end point) when determining accuracy - it's heavily weighted. It'll be very easy to tell when you've corrected your natural swing - the end of your white line will end in the blue channel more than it doesn't. Currently 100% of your shots are not ending in the channel..
For everyone: If you have shots where the white line ends within the blue channel you can rest assured that you will be fine going forward. It's the guys that have the vast majority of their white lines ending outside of blue channel that will be affected once the policing goes into effect.
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Post by Doyley on Feb 27, 2020 20:48:43 GMT -5
So if this is going to start being enforced here are my questions: Will it only apply to drives and approaches or also putting as well? (People with the natural swing line also push/pull their putts not sure if there is any advantage doing it during putting). I assume it would cause if they have to change their swing to straight, i assume they would start putting straight. Will it be a certain percentage throughout the tournament or on a round by round basis? (swing might be off in a certain round) Will it also be enforced in promotional events where PGA, EURO, and KF tour cards are available to the top placers? Will it be enforced if the CC-A winner is using this swing (they would be promoted to the KF)? Will players on the top 3 tours who dont care about swing lines/cant hit straight shots for whatever reason be allowed to take voluntary demotions to the CC-A? (this could make it hard for new players to get on the top 3 tours if its not being enforced on the CC level) Good questions here 1. Won't apply to putting 2. haven't decided - might be similar to our current policies where it combines R1/R2 and R3/R4 together as that would probably be the easiest to code in (copy/paste and change a few values) 3. Leaning on no since the majority of people in these events are from the CC ranks - if people get to Pro tours from it they'll have to adjust once there - lesser of the two evils unfortunately (falls under the 'I'm not going to manually police it' 4. See #3 - likely no 5. Don't think we'll allow that - They are some of the best scorers in this game - sending them down to CC-A is not a solution I'm going to go with - if 95% (probably a low estimate) of our members can manage to swing inside the blue channel - I expect our push/pull golfers to be able to adapt and do so as well.
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Post by theduke21 on Feb 27, 2020 20:59:28 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this for a bit and how to get my point across without offending anyone or sounding like an "elitist" or something. And I've been trying to think of it in perspectives of real golf since that's the game we're playing after all and this is supposed to be a sim. Unfortunately, it does a bad job at that.
The purpose of real golf is to swing your club back on a repeatable plane that gets your club face coming through contact with a square face to provide consistent results. Now, I know what people will say. "Swing your own swing - Arnold Palmer." Meh, that's all mostly a load of BS. Yes, a lot of pros have some weird swings. People will say Furyk or Wolfe or Kuchar. But all of these swings use different techniques to eventually get to the same result. A club face that comes through contact at the same point every time to give them consistent and repeatable results. The different swing paths are essentially like batting stances in baseball.
So, I know what you'll say next. "Why can't I just make a weird backswing and a weird follow through on the game as long as I play for my result and my swing is coming through contact the same every time." Well, a joystick just doesn't provide for a very good representation of a golf swing. No matter what you do really, you'll always come back through the middle of the joystick on your swing. It's how the joystick is setup with everything pulling back to the middle. Pull the stick back and let go ... it goes right back to the middle. So that theory doesn't work. There's no challenge in getting back to the middle.
Forever ago, golf game devs made the choice that a swing on golf games should be straight back and straight forward to properly test the player. And I think it works well in theory and makes sense. Make us produce a consistent straight swing plane. It's about the only thing that could be remotely challenging. Especially on TGC. The cone allows for a little wiggle room on either side for people who may be swinging their own swing as long as it's consistent. It's equally penalizing like it should be. The issue is what happens outside of the cone that is broken on this game.
In most golf games that I've played as far as I remember, swinging outside of the cone or all over the place produces poor contact. That's probably how it should be. If we're given a perceived plane that we need to swing on to make good contact and hit it straight, then anything off of that shouldn't be struck as well. Something that is way outside of that plane and not straight simply shouldn't make good contact. Otherwise, there's not a single factor on the game to give us a challenge to hit the golf ball solidly. So what would even be the point? If that feature worked like that, you'd see scores in general go way up. Shots outside of the cone or even at the edge of the cone would lose some distance and actually penalize you instead of what it is right now, which basically just makes you miss the pin 15 feet off line, or for people that play out of the cone, miss the pin by 5-10 feet offline.
I thought of it like this. I bring my friend out to try golf for the first time. He has a wild swing ... all over the place. But he does that wild swing the exact same way every time. Either way, that swing usually tops the ball or hits a pop fly to right field. The equivalent argument to what we're seeing in these forums would be for him to ask, "Well if I'm swinging this really weird swing every time, why am I not hitting it long and straight like you." Well it's because he's not swinging the club on a plane that produces a good golf shot. Golf games provide us with the plane we need to use to hit good shots, yet this one doesn't penalize you at all if you're off of it.
So to anyone who has been playing really well with a swing that's usually way off plane and feel like they're being slighted here, do you truly feel you should be able to play as consistently or to the same level as someone who is usually consistently keeping it in the cone and swinging it pretty straight like golf games have always intended to be the recipe for success? That's always been where the skill gap has been alongside making putts. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way or say anyone has been cheating or exploiting. I know it's how tons of people naturally swing, especially people who are thumb swingers with a wide angle on their hand. But in my opinion, swinging it outside of the intentioned plane should be penalized to a degree. If it's not, a huge skill gap is taken out of the game and it's fairly useless overall to even have a straight swing.
I guess the only advice I have for anyone trying to adjust their swing is to try to change your hand angle to get your thumb a little further behind the stick. Or try the index on top, thumb on bottom technique that many people use.
Hope anyone doesn't take this the wrong way. At the end of the day, it's a game and we're all here to fairly compete with people at a similar skill level and hopefully be a part of a great community here, which we have.
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Post by Generic_Casual on Feb 27, 2020 21:25:22 GMT -5
Well, guess I'll give it a go to try and fix it starting next week.
ππ
This should be fun!
ππ
I don't want to hear any sh%$ from y'all when I post a low score!
ππ
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Post by mrohde4 on Feb 27, 2020 21:33:02 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this for a bit and how to get my point across without offending anyone or sounding like an "elitist" or something. And I've been trying to think of it in perspectives of real golf since that's the game we're playing after all and this is supposed to be a sim. Unfortunately, it does a bad job at that. The purpose of real golf is to swing your club back on a repeatable plane that gets your club face coming through contact with a square face to provide consistent results. Now, I know what people will say. "Swing your own swing - Arnold Palmer." Meh, that's all mostly a load of BS. Yes, a lot of pros have some weird swings. People will say Furyk or Wolfe or Kuchar. But all of these swings use different techniques to eventually get to the same result. A club face that comes through contact at the same point every time to give them consistent and repeatable results. The different swing paths are essentially like batting stances in baseball. So, I know what you'll say next. "Why can't I just make a weird backswing and a weird follow through on the game as long as I play for my result and my swing is coming through contact the same every time." Well, a joystick just doesn't provide for a very good representation of a golf swing. No matter what you do really, you'll always come back through the middle of the joystick on your swing. It's how the joystick is setup with everything pulling back to the middle. Pull the stick back and let go ... it goes right back to the middle. So that theory doesn't work. There's no challenge in getting back to the middle. Forever ago, golf game devs made the choice that a swing on golf games should be straight back and straight forward to properly test the player. And I think it works well in theory and makes sense. Make us produce a consistent straight swing plane. It's about the only thing that could be remotely challenging. Especially on TGC. The cone allows for a little wiggle room on either side for people who may be swinging their own swing as long as it's consistent. It's equally penalizing like it should be. The issue is what happens outside of the cone that is broken on this game. In most golf games that I've played as far as I remember, swinging outside of the cone or all over the place produces poor contact. That's probably how it should be. If we're given a perceived plane that we need to swing on to make good contact and hit it straight, then anything off of that shouldn't be struck as well. Something that is way outside of that plane and not straight simply shouldn't make good contact. Otherwise, there's not a single factor on the game to give us a challenge to hit the golf ball solidly. So what would even be the point? If that feature worked like that, you'd see scores in general go way up. Shots outside of the cone or even at the edge of the cone would lose some distance and actually penalize you instead of what it is right now, which basically just makes you miss the pin 15 feet off line, or for people that play out of the cone, miss the pin by 5-10 feet offline. I thought of it like this. I bring my friend out to try golf for the first time. He has a wild swing ... all over the place. But he does that wild swing the exact same way every time. Either way, that swing usually tops the ball or hits a pop fly to right field. The equivalent argument to what we're seeing in these forums would be for him to ask, "Well if I'm swinging this really weird swing every time, why am I not hitting it long and straight like you." Well it's because he's not swinging the club on a plane that produces a good golf shot. Golf games provide us with the plane we need to use to hit good shots, yet this one doesn't penalize you at all if you're off of it. So to anyone who has been playing really well with a swing that's usually way off plane and feel like they're being slighted here, do you truly feel you should be able to play as consistently or to the same level as someone who is usually consistently keeping it in the cone and swinging it pretty straight like golf games have always intended to be the recipe for success? That's always been where the skill gap has been alongside making putts. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way or say anyone has been cheating or exploiting. I know it's how tons of people naturally swing, especially people who are thumb swingers with a wide angle on their hand. But in my opinion, swinging it outside of the intentioned plane should be penalized to a degree. If it's not, a huge skill gap is taken out of the game and it's fairly useless overall to even have a straight swing. I guess the only advice I have for anyone trying to adjust their swing is to try to change your hand angle to get your thumb a little further behind the stick. Or try the index on top, thumb on bottom technique that many people use. Hope anyone doesn't take this the wrong way. At the end of the day, it's a game and we're all here to fairly compete with people at a similar skill level and hopefully be a part of a great community here, which we have. Incredible. The best post ever written in my five years here. Belongs in a museum.
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Post by Doyley on Feb 27, 2020 21:33:58 GMT -5
First off - I just want to say I'm extremely disappointed we're in this position. It really sucks and is not at all what we want to be doing here at TGC Tours. We're trying to make the best out of a very crappy situation.
So here is the biggest issue. Jeff and I were just looking at the data for the Euro and Web this week (first time I've had a chance to look into those tours) and we are finding a lot of people that are missing the cone regularly. Many of these people are shooting what I would call average scores (mid-60's). There are so many people that have swings that miss the cone but are probably not aware of how to take advantage of it as well as has been documented here. There are only a handful below the PGA that are using the push/pull with any success. Heck there are only a handful in the PGA using it (currently).
It's a real mess - to the worst degree. Any policing we do will undoubtedly scoop up many (thinking 25-50 people on Euro/Web alone). That is an incredibly large number of people that would require tickets and support. Many of whom are not even sniffing rounds in the 50's.
We have no good options. I know I've been pro-policing - but the data from the Web and European tours is telling me they can't be included. It's just too many people included with only an extreme small fraction of them finding the top 10's on leaderboards.
So we're left with - again, status quo or policing PGA only. Neither option even close to optimal. It makes me upset we're in this position after we had such a good run with TGC1 (and to a lesser extent TGC2).
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Post by mrohde4 on Feb 27, 2020 21:34:03 GMT -5
Well, guess I'll give it a go to try and fix it starting next week. ππ This should be fun! ππ I don't want to hear any sh%$ from y'all when I post a low score! ππ And the βIβll show you mineβ thread is a good spot to post a video.
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