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Post by humanecentipede on Feb 26, 2020 20:11:37 GMT -5
Guess my question really is - if you intentionally swing a little more to the right - does your line go in the cone? Can you angle the controller differently etc - can you physically get the white line into the cone or is it impossible? Itβs hard to say, this has been my swing for years, when I try to go more right it goes outside the cone to the right. Just watching my 9 holes real quick, for full shots I had 6/15 inside the cone 6/15 straddling the coneβs left edge 3/15 outside the cone (maybe 11:15-11:30) No matter what I do though, I think I would be right around 50% inside the cone.
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Post by CuseHokie on Feb 26, 2020 20:28:01 GMT -5
An idea, Doyley The data you use for the algorithm based on shots performed by players (good and bad) over the years you were able to make a fair analysis on what should be possible and what shouldn't in terms of a straight swing. Could this same data not be used to also determine how far off the center from the good but most importantly the lesser players on average, which would be just another algorithm working independently? I mean would that not at least prevent the obscurities you see now that no doubt stand out above all other years and therefore make some reasonable assumption it was deliberate? I don't know, I mean I assume this is what you mean about there being no middle ground but this would at least be something close to a compromise that was still fair. I would have to believe 2019's vs 2's vs 1's data are all sort of mutually exclusive. 1 didn't have tempo. 2 was a vastly different swing from 2019. Other than that, your point stands with regards to 2019's data since about August 2018?
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Post by Doyley on Feb 26, 2020 20:35:36 GMT -5
An idea, Doyley The data you use for the algorithm based on shots performed by players (good and bad) over the years you were able to make a fair analysis on what should be possible and what shouldn't in terms of a straight swing. Could this same data not be used to also determine how far off the center from the good but most importantly the lesser players on average, which would be just another algorithm working independently? I mean would that not at least prevent the obscurities you see now that no doubt stand out above all other years and therefore make some reasonable assumption it was deliberate? I don't know, I mean I assume this is what you mean about there being no middle ground but this would at least be something close to a compromise that was still fair. We can basically limit its use but we'll never be able to ban the push/pull. it's just insane to try and say you can't miss the cone or else we'll pull you - I do it all the time by accident. Best we could do is have people play to hit inside the cone - and if you're unable to put the white line inside the cone regularly (I'm mainly talking about the end of the white line - not the middle), you'll probably have to get your golf fix elsewhere.
We will probably only implement this on the top 3 tours as well - which will be another point of disappointment for those in the Challenge Circuit - there are way too many people that have swings that miss the cone that shoot all over the score spectrum. There's no way I'm pulling guys that shoot 15-over and can't hit the cone. I'm also not going to pick an arbitrary score and anyone above/below that is pulled/remains on leaderboard. The additional workload for fair play tickets is another huge concern. Every decision made here has time attached to it for both Jeff and I.
There is one wildcard in all of this - getting Tim available to implement any new metric into the Fair Play Policy. I do not have a timeline for when/if anything will happen on that front. This is not something I will be policing manually - so until it gets put into the Fair Play code, we'll be status quo. I have yet to hear back from him so none of this is close to set in stone at this point.
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Post by materialization on Feb 26, 2020 21:03:22 GMT -5
OK, interesting so potentially those same principles suggested could be implemented in the top 3 tours but only based off of top 3 tour based players. At least then you'll have some reliable number to go by if nothing else.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 21:07:27 GMT -5
An idea, Doyley The data you use for the algorithm based on shots performed by players (good and bad) over the years you were able to make a fair analysis on what should be possible and what shouldn't in terms of a straight swing. Could this same data not be used to also determine how far off the center from the good but most importantly the lesser players on average, which would be just another algorithm working independently? I mean would that not at least prevent the obscurities you see now that no doubt stand out above all other years and therefore make some reasonable assumption it was deliberate? I don't know, I mean I assume this is what you mean about there being no middle ground but this would at least be something close to a compromise that was still fair. We can basically limit its use but we'll never be able to ban the push/pull. it's just insane to try and say you can't miss the cone or else we'll pull you - I do it all the time by accident. Best we could do is have people play to hit inside the cone - and if you're unable to put the white line inside the cone regularly (I'm mainly talking about the end of the white line - not the middle), you'll probably have to get your golf fix elsewhere.
When you say to have people to play inside the cone, does that take into account a fully lofted shot? The cone is much narrower for that so a player could miss that but the swing line would be on the limit of where a regular non lofted shot would be. Would that classify as a legal or illegal shot according to the data?
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Post by Generic_Casual on Feb 26, 2020 21:13:33 GMT -5
Video of my Round 4 is uploading now.
Will post shortly.
However, I'm in the range right now practicing me swing.
I have to "make" myself swing the stick right at the top to hit it "straight-ish".
It feels really, really bad.
I will also post a video of that in a bit.
I guess if that's what I have to do, then so be it.
It just feels SUPER unnatural.
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Post by nick80 on Feb 26, 2020 21:16:56 GMT -5
If we're going to police this then some people are going to have to adjust swings. We're either going to go Wild West and everyone can exploit at will or we're going to go all-in on 12-6 shooting with everyone needing to make best efforts to swing in the cone and those that can't hit the cone the majority of the time will be pulled
There's no middle ground...
Pick your poison. You opened the pandor box by wanting to control the gameplay for better fair play. We cannot blame this. The intention is good. But it started with too straight shots and flick shots and now here come pull shots. You can be sure there will be something else after that. You try to control a broken gameplay in vain. You said that you collect tons of data from each round to determine what we can call a correct swing based on trying to hit on the blue. But if in these datas there are players who intentionally hit away from the con, part of this datas are mathematically incorrect.
Accept that you can't juge the intentionality of straight, flick or pull shots. I think you should think about stopping this as soon as possible.
When we asked HB why they didn't patch the game because on matchplay an average pro club player always win against a good master club player the reply was "matchplay is just a way to find friends to play multiplayer private games". they didn't change anything or so litlle in 18th months. This game is clearly not design for competition. You are doing a great job running this site but the gameplay is broken. Let's people play the game with is good and bad points. This is a no end discussion. End it if you can
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Feb 26, 2020 21:21:28 GMT -5
If we're going to police this then some people are going to have to adjust swings. We're either going to go Wild West and everyone can exploit at will or we're going to go all-in on 12-6 shooting with everyone needing to make best efforts to swing in the cone and those that can't hit the cone the majority of the time will be pulled
There's no middle ground...
Pick your poison. You opened the pandor box by wanting to control the gameplay for better fair play. We cannot blame this. The intention is good. But it started with too straight shots and flick shots and now here come pull shots. You can be sure there will be something else after that. You try to control a broken gameplay in vain. You said that you collect tons of data from each round to determine what we can call a correct swing based on trying to hit on the blue. But if in these datas there are players who intentionally hit away from the con, part of this datas are mathematically incorrect.
Accept that you can't juge the intentionality of straight, flick or pull shots. I think you should think about stopping this as soon as possible.
When we asked HB why they didn't patch the game because on matchplay an average pro club player always win against a good master club player the reply was "matchplay is just a way to find friends to play multiplayer private games". they didn't change anything or so litlle in 18th months. This game is clearly not design for competition. You are doing a great job running this site but the gameplay is broken. Let's people play the game with is good and bad points. This is a no end discussion. End it if you can So are you advocating the "Wild West" option then?
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Post by Generic_Casual on Feb 26, 2020 21:38:35 GMT -5
Here is my Round 4...
Scutinise all you want.
I'm sorry if this seems like I'm less than the straight guys.
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Also, here is a quick video of me trying to hit them "straight"
I feel like this is SUPER awkward because I have to push the stick right at the top.
I also feel like I have a somewhat repeatable swing.
Sorry again if this makes me a lesser.
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Post by Brighttail on Feb 26, 2020 21:50:43 GMT -5
Let me ask this question. In TGC 1 and TGC 2, the mouse swing was such that I could pull back my swing, little by little and hold it there for as long as I want. It was in the game, HB knew about it, they said they weren't going to change it, so it was what it was, and advantage for mouse players as well as there was a way to do it with controllers to. It was limited to PC tho. There is still a video of my showing that I could hit a 5 wood at 90% power three times in a row with no issues. Obviously, this was never intended to be in the game. HB even said it isn't supposed to be, but it was and they weren't going to change it. It should be noted I could do this for flops too. This type of swing I see as the same type of issue. It is a known exploit at this point. It is a swing that is not acting in the normal way a swing is/was intended. It is a bug/exploit that HB at this point is now aware of but is not going to change. So If HB is aware of an exploit, apparently have no issues of them using the exploit and there is no intention to patch or fix the issue (tho they fixed it in the latest game). Furhter, I know back in those days people were chipping only with a 9 iron, fully max lofted on just about every chip. It wasn't meant to be this way but like the SLOW backswing now, it was something everyone could do and HB at that time did consider it an exploit that they never intended to put into the game, but in the end never punished anyone or fixed it. So the question is simple. Should an exploit in TGC 1 that gave a full advantage to PC players to be able to dial in the distances in between long woods/irons and yet it was never banned, have been banned by the Tours? I ask this because if the answer is "yes" then the same answer should be of this swing and those who chip/flop with a Slow backswing to have a better chance to make the shot. All of them should have been banned, because they were shots never intended to be in the game and they give an absolute advantage to anyone using them. So I'm for banning all these and play the game as the developers intended. My only concern is the extra work put on the admins. Hopefully after a few weeks of people realizing they have to change, the admin's work will settle down. As a mouse user I have relearned my swing completely 4 or 5 times because changes that HB made, sometimes mid-season. It sucks but it can be done. A new swing would take time and we have lots of time between now and the next Majors. So my vote is to get rid of these swings/scenarios. If you don't then expect lots of people suddenly using it and scores will drop even further. We saw this once Boomer or whoever it was let the 9iron chip strategy out of the bag. Suddenly everyone was doing it and that led to people intentionally missing tucked greens to end up in the rough around the green. The number of chip ins skyrocketed and those that practiced it, gained 2-4 strokes a round cause anything around the green they had great odds of chipping it in. Take it out completely, Doyley. The advantage is too big and too easy for others to overcome. Had I used it on this tournament instead of on practice, I wouldn't have shot -18 and missed the cut but would have been -25 and safely in. That is a big jump.
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Post by blueorfe on Feb 26, 2020 21:57:36 GMT -5
-28 through two. Played pretty well overall, made an horrendous double bogey on 5 in round one: I somehow managed to 4 putt from 25 feet or so Made an ace in round two to make up for that, a lofted 6 iron with some genuine risk to it
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Post by unclevirt on Feb 26, 2020 21:58:01 GMT -5
If this does get policed I would like to request some kind of knowledge as to what is and isn't going to get pulled to even know if the swing is worth trying to fix. I think that's a fair request. If nothing else, I would have more time on my hands (:
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Post by Doyley on Feb 26, 2020 22:09:37 GMT -5
When you say to have people to play inside the cone, does that take into account a fully lofted shot? The cone is much narrower for that so a player could miss that but the swing line would be on the limit of where a regular non lofted shot would be. Would that classify as a legal or illegal shot according to the data? Probably something we need to test to confirm but my understanding is it spits out a decimal value and that the cone size is not a factor - so when I say stay within the cone just picture that as a full size cone - regardless of amount of loft actually used.
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Post by Brighttail on Feb 26, 2020 22:55:54 GMT -5
When I look at the HB forms and see devs say, "oh this is working as intended" my mind quite literally goes to how we were told for months and months and months that there was no such thing as ball squirt, until Anthony let it slip on a podcast that not only was there something called ball squirt, but it was intentionally put into the game and HB flat out lied about it because they didn't want to admit it. Anthony was apparently against it all along but was "out voted" so it remained for a very long time until they finally just removed it.
It was at this point I stopped trying to help HB with their game until they brought me into the beta testing, which showed me even further that they were really only interested in feed back that would help their societies and such and not items that were broken with the swing. Why? They were more concerned with items they were promoting for the game and not issues that would require too much time to recode and that might have them have to recode full aspects of their code because it was broken to begin with.
No, HB won't fix this unless it was a part of their new code already. HB views an exploit like this as something that really doesn't effect their bottom line and that only a small amount of their population would really use or exploit. It is for the same reasons they won't auto DQ anyone using angle snapping. Who are they to tell a person how to play their game, so long as it isn't doing something obvious like change the numbers on a score card or altering data like some hacks did. Hb views an exploit like this as just another way to play their game and so long as they aren't breaking code doing it, then it is perfectly acceptable. I've seen it all before.
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Post by catcherman22 on Feb 27, 2020 1:49:55 GMT -5
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