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Post by coggin66 on Mar 4, 2020 15:58:18 GMT -5
Otherwise it becomes a pure opinion contest when it isn't. I disagree with this bit. Subject to the correct application of any competition rubric (Drink!), it is always an opinion contest. The end result just depends on the mix of judges and their skill sets and how their opinions are combined. |
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Post by Oscar C on Mar 4, 2020 16:00:42 GMT -5
All these comments validate my concern with the CC contest with 50 courses.
At the end of the day it’s a game and I’m sure moving forward some things will be improved and life will go on.
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Post by jwtexan on Mar 4, 2020 16:03:47 GMT -5
I don't get why the judges have to have design experience. Since longer than I can remember here, we have wanted judges to be a combination of designers and players. I would hope the former would have some design knowledge but I expect none from the latter. It we change to only having design knowledge we will get even fewer judges not more and it will just be an echo chamber of the self-proclaimed design cognoscenti. I don't believe you need to be a designer to be a judge. Having the players perspective is also important. But, being a golf fan or at least studying up on different types of courses could help. |
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Post by b101 on Mar 4, 2020 16:07:32 GMT -5
Otherwise it becomes a pure opinion contest when it isn't. I disagree with this bit. Subject to the correct application of any competition rubric (Drink!), it is always an opinion contest. The end result just depends on the mix of judges and their skill sets and how their opinions are combined. Yup, hence the word pure. It will be opinion to split the top courses for sure, because there aren’t technical errors there. Earlier on though, there are and you do need some degree of experience to spot it. I totally agree that, pretty much at the stage we’re at now in this contest (and to some extent, the round just gone), it’s purely opinion, and I’m fine with that. |
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Post by coggin66 on Mar 4, 2020 16:52:24 GMT -5
Maybe in future the judges should be classified (e.g. Judge 1 = experienced designer & Pro Tour player; Judge 2 = CC player only) so the contestants understand what perspective the judge has.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742 
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Mar 4, 2020 17:01:53 GMT -5
I have a thought... How about we all remember that this contest means absolutely nothing other than having a good time and producing quality courses for the community? I mean I totally being upset. I completely understand the points being made. However, no matter what steps were taken or not taken or are taken in the future, no matter what judging system is put in place, no matter what rubric *drink* is used, No matter how we classify judges or courses or moderators or anything else at the end of the day it is a group of internet golf video game players saying which imaginary golf video game construction they most like. Unless we have professional real world course designers on here incognito nobody has a valid claim of being the best or having the most important view point. Are there guys that seem to put out quality more often? Sure. Are the designers that seem to hold more sway? Of course, that's the nature of a game community. BUT...it's a contest...run on an internet forum...for video game players...with the biggest prize simply being a donated gift card.
No matter any changes that are made you will not have a perfect system or even a system that gets it "right" according to other people. We have had a contest that was entirely decided by forum vote. Know how that went? I'll give you a hint...we haven't had another one.
If you feel slighted because you lost, go ahead and be hurt and stick up for your course. If you're a judge and don't like being told you're a blithering idiot then maybe don't volunteer to be a judge OR leave yourself anonymous (which is your choice). Otherwise...this is all kind of pissing into the wind.
All that being said if ya'll are enjoying the banter...whatever. I find it rather boring.
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Post by Giraffe72 on Mar 4, 2020 18:10:23 GMT -5
Ideally you want a good mixture on these judging panels. Yes there should be some people who know a bit about design and the technicalities, but in a contest where it was set out at the start that 'Flow and Fun' are the most important aspects then really any regular player qualifies. You don't need to know what a sandbelt looks like to decide if a course plays well or not. I'm not for a second saying there hasn't been some mistakes, or at least oversights made in this because clearly there has. Hopefully the judges have learned something too and maybe something can be put in place to help in future. But at the end of the day, as long as every judge has given this their full attention and given an honest opinion with no other agenda, that's all you can ask isn't it? You want to be a little careful with the belittling of people who have tried their best because you'll end up with no one volunteering, and these contests will just end up being a bunch of designers slapping each other on the back.
It's all subjective really, it's been a quality competition with not a bad course in it, just different degrees of good. I win because I get to play them!  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 19:05:50 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, since I’ve seen it mentioned a few times now, why is it that designers are only capable of patting each other on the back? 🤔 This implies that designers aren’t capable of being fair and balanced, does it not?
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Mar 4, 2020 19:44:37 GMT -5
I volunteer to tell any designer they suck. Just point me at em.
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Mar 4, 2020 19:57:29 GMT -5
I volunteer to tell any designer they suck. Just point me at em. How about the one who lost to Fisheye in the quarterfinals?  |
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Mar 4, 2020 20:13:15 GMT -5
every day mayo...
Every. Damn. Day.
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Post by Giraffe72 on Mar 4, 2020 20:40:39 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, since I’ve seen it mentioned a few times now, why is it that designers are only capable of patting each other on the back? 🤔 This implies that designers aren’t capable of being fair and balanced, does it not? No, I don't think that. There are designers on this judging panel, of course I don't think they won't give honest assessments. Actually you might find they are even more harsh because they might see faults that the regular player wouldn't! But you don't want this becoming a closed shop, designers designing for designers. There's enough accusations of a clique already! It's right that these contests and this one in particular should be judged by a combination of players and designers. This contest always throws up surprise results just because of the format. Some benefit, some get unlucky. But it's more than about who wins, we've got (in my opinion) 32 tour worthy courses out of this and the community will all have favourites which get played in numerous societies. How many plays has Halstatt (sp?) got, I bet it's in the thousands? And rightly so, it's a cracker |
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Mar 4, 2020 21:09:18 GMT -5
Remember that time that a great course won a contest of great courses, and on the way there some other great courses had to get beat. That was fun.
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Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Mar 4, 2020 22:05:21 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, since I’ve seen it mentioned a few times now, why is it that designers are only capable of patting each other on the back? 🤔 This implies that designers aren’t capable of being fair and balanced, does it not? I don't think it's that they can't give negative comments, but most (especially in WIP threads) just may not want to get tarred and feathered for not saying looking good or great job. I for one did point out some minor flaws for designers to fix up before publish in the RDC last year, or at least the comments were like "you may want to give some attention to...". Those posts of mine were followed by some mentioning that negative shouldn't be given as it could sway opinion. I disagree with that logic, but alas, I also didn't want to have anyone get bent over such comments, so I reverted back to the looks good and great job lines, and also posted much less in threads other than my own. I look at these contests as an opportunity to hone and improve my ability in the designer. The feedback is really what I (and all of us) are after. I've always said in my own threads that I want honesty. If anyone sees anything that I could improve upon, I certainly would want that feedback up front rather than after the fact. I believe we have a solid community of designers. I haven't been around as long as others, but recognize that ALL of us as a whole are pretty incredible and capable people, from the DAMs and the KEGs and everyone in between. Keep up the good work all... May your blue brushes serve you well.. |
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Mar 5, 2020 5:04:29 GMT -5
Jeff has really covered what I was getting at when I mentioned 'slapping each other's backs'. I know people's intentions are good but when you get a lot of positive comments followed by a negative comment it can give the negative a bigger impact. This will be amplified more when it's involved in a design contest, and I guess that's why we have more tension when they come about.
I encourage people to give feedback whether positive or negative as long as it's done in the correct manner. I also try to not get carried away or disheartened by any one person's feedback.
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