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Post by dgforelife on Feb 10, 2020 0:09:04 GMT -5
If you didn't notice crowds I'm going to assume there weren't any - which would mean there's not much we can do as it was tested and passed the lag test on your console. There was some of the worst lag I've ever witnessed on hole 18 round 3 I believe. Might've been round 2. Other than that it wasn't noticeable on the PS4.
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Post by Brighttail on Feb 10, 2020 0:35:46 GMT -5
Haven't even looked at the course and I'm already intimidated. Was it the course that caused the hard feelings, thus resulting in bans or is it par for the course, as they say. All I know it is nice to see a mouse user excelling again, even if it isn't me.
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Post by crushtastic on Feb 10, 2020 1:08:59 GMT -5
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how tricked up, or how easy the course is. Everyone plays the same course with the same conditions.
End of story*.
*Sorry there were no dragons.
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Post by b101 on Feb 10, 2020 1:20:53 GMT -5
Since having really good interactions with Dale after he scheduled a couple of my courses (FYI, we don't always get consulted on conditions with different tours), I always read through a PGA thread as it's become my guilty pleasure for the week to see just what people are moaning about. A few takeaways from a complete outsider and as a designer: 1) The lag you're noticing is probably due to buried trees under the bunkers to give the texture. Not the planting you're seeing. It's nothing to do with meter usage, more the quantity of items near the hole - very few of us do this, so it's nothing to do with the course being heavily planted. 2) Feel really sorry for Dale, who I maintain gives you a great variety - not that people want to hear that. As mentioned, you can have Susquehannock to Blunderbuss and everything in between and still people are not happy because, guess what, they want to blame the fact that they won't win on literally anything else. 3) Would love to see how many of players who regularly moan actually contribute to the community by rangering. As Riotous says, it's not much of an ask 4) Whoever the next unfortunate soul doing the PGA scheduling is, is there a way it could be made anonymous? Seeing as we're accepting it's a thankless and impossible task... 5) Lidar courses are almost universally terrible. Don't push for them. Oh, and as a former PS4 user, shame on you all for moaning like **** about a bit of lag when you all know that your system has numerous advantages. Try switching to PC and watch yourselves drop down a few tours when perfect/perfect is no longer automatic. The console thing goes both ways.
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Post by rcknfrewld on Feb 10, 2020 2:34:12 GMT -5
The same few handful of people manage to find something to complain about every week. Pay them no mind Dale. We need challenging and frustrating courses like this on PGA. The shots were there. You just had to execute them. I didn't half of the time and it's on me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 3:45:50 GMT -5
Since having really good interactions with Dale after he scheduled a couple of my courses (FYI, we don't always get consulted on conditions with different tours), I always read through a PGA thread as it's become my guilty pleasure for the week to see just what people are moaning about. A few takeaways from a complete outsider and as a designer: 1) The lag you're noticing is probably due to buried trees under the bunkers to give the texture. Not the planting you're seeing. It's nothing to do with meter usage, more the quantity of items near the hole - very few of us do this, so it's nothing to do with the course being heavily planted. On PS4 I had no lag in round one, but had lag on a few holes in round two with heavy lag around the green on #18 in that mentioned 2nd round. The trees being buried (this still blows my mind that this is done, and kudos to designers that do this to improve their courses in subtle ways) would affect all rounds I would think if this was the actual cause. I experienced lag on the holes with heavy shadows. It may be more than just the shadows that are contributing to the lag, but that seems to be the straw that is "breaking the camels back" here.
2) Feel really sorry for Dale, who I maintain gives you a great variety - not that people want to hear that. As mentioned, you can have Susquehannock to Blunderbuss and everything in between and still people are not happy because, guess what, they want to blame the fact that they won't win on literally anything else. Cannot speak for all, but on a tour labeled 'PGA' I would want a bit more of IRL courses represented. If it is an accurate representation, then the course has natural defenses. If one looks at the schedule for this season, you will note that the IRL course was used 2 times out of 22 weeks thusfar. It isn't available several weeks, and I understand that. Nothing against any of the courses used this season as they have been good courses as a whole, but when the more iconic courses are available I think they should be used a majority of the time. Just my .02.3) Would love to see how many of players who regularly moan actually contribute to the community by rangering. As Riotous says, it's not much of an ask I have been a ranger multiple times in the past. In fact, when we were rangering the big Q-School 2 week qualifier just after TGC2019 dropped, I mentioned when rangering one of those courses that we should be asked as rangers to test various conditions per course that the schedulers may use for that course as the options were now available for schedulers to change up conditions. I was assured that "they got it". However, in 18 or so months of playing on tour I see conditions that are questionable. I realize that the manpower for rangering and also time may all be limited. This begs the question of where does the onus go when a scheduler puts in conditions outside of default and/or that weren't tested? In a perfect world any condition used in TGCT play would have been tested, but I realize this isn't always practical. I would say then using actually tested/default conditions should be heavily considered here.4) Whoever the next unfortunate soul doing the PGA scheduling is, is there a way it could be made anonymous? Seeing as we're accepting it's a thankless and impossible task... Was thinking this same thing, too, however the scheduler(s) involved will likely be working with designers and word will get out eventually who they are I would think. I also think a team of two or three might work as well where each uses their strengths to evaluate courses. IDK, just spewing randomness that may or may not stick.5) Lidar courses are almost universally terrible. Don't push for them. Why so?
Oh, and as a former PS4 user, shame on you all for moaning like **** about a bit of lag when you all know that your system has numerous advantages. Try switching to PC and watch yourselves drop down a few tours when perfect/perfect is no longer automatic. The console thing goes both ways. No one disputes the PS4 advantages. The whole rangering system is designed to look for lag among ALL systems and for suspect pins. We at TGCT cannot change the advantages/disadvantages that HB has given us all, but we CAN suss out the limits that cause lag and find bad pins that were fine on the original system but may show up on others. To allow this just because one system has the advantage basically says that the rangering process isn't important and/or needed.
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 10, 2020 4:15:39 GMT -5
The same few handful of people manage to find something to complain about every week. Pay them no mind Dale. We need challenging and frustrating courses like this on PGA. The shots were there. You just had to execute them. I didn't half of the time and it's on me. I don't think the b%&ing has been about the difficulty of the course James, but the performance of it with certain settings.
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 10, 2020 4:35:36 GMT -5
Since having really good interactions with Dale after he scheduled a couple of my courses (FYI, we don't always get consulted on conditions with different tours), I always read through a PGA thread as it's become my guilty pleasure for the week to see just what people are moaning about. A few takeaways from a complete outsider and as a designer: 1) The lag you're noticing is probably due to buried trees under the bunkers to give the texture. Not the planting you're seeing. It's nothing to do with meter usage, more the quantity of items near the hole - very few of us do this, so it's nothing to do with the course being heavily planted. 2) Feel really sorry for Dale, who I maintain gives you a great variety - not that people want to hear that. As mentioned, you can have Susquehannock to Blunderbuss and everything in between and still people are not happy because, guess what, they want to blame the fact that they won't win on literally anything else. 3) Would love to see how many of players who regularly moan actually contribute to the community by rangering. As Riotous says, it's not much of an ask 4) Whoever the next unfortunate soul doing the PGA scheduling is, is there a way it could be made anonymous? Seeing as we're accepting it's a thankless and impossible task... 5) Lidar courses are almost universally terrible. Don't push for them. Oh, and as a former PS4 user, shame on you all for moaning like **** about a bit of lag when you all know that your system has numerous advantages. Try switching to PC and watch yourselves drop down a few tours when perfect/perfect is no longer automatic. The console thing goes both ways. 2) Nope... Nope that's not it, for at least the VAST majority of PGA players. We mostly know our own failings. There is some frustration on setups sometimes, which has been well covered, but few moan because they feel it's anything to do with whether they could win or not. As has been covered - PS4 users know that, over XBox, there is a distinct advantage, over PC, not so much, depending on your particular setup, but regardless, there is no way that slideshows like 18 should be "justified" just because you think PS4 is easier. That's ridiculous. If someone contending for a win comes down 18 and has tempo nightmares due to this, they'd be entitled to feel aggrieved. Regardless of how easy it is viewed to be on PS4, you set your level of expectation on your own performance and capabilities. Nobody is going to be happy in that scenario.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 4:44:24 GMT -5
PS4 users know that, over XBox, there is a distinct advantage, over PC, not so much, depending on your particular setup, Just my opinion and limited experience on PC here:
If I would play on PC, I would be on the CC tours somewhere. Probably CC-Pro. Just my particular situation. User mileage may vary.
To go on a tangent: I also worked with Admin with all of my controllers on PC and using 3 different DualShock4's and a XB1 controller, only one of those wasn't borderline by API standards and that controller has an analog that "drifts" so it isn't practical to use. This is separate from the huge tempo variances I saw compared to playing on PS4. If XB1 is even more of an issue, then I thoroughly applaud all players who play outside of PS4 and can maintain PGA level.
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Post by theduke21 on Feb 10, 2020 5:01:31 GMT -5
Yeah, this conversation doesn't need to derail to two groups being on both extreme sides of the discussion.
1. Nobody should be attacking people doing a thankless job or putting complete blame on a certain group. Like I mentioned earlier, it's a long line of things that can cause the problems. If anyone has complained about difficulty on this course, they're just being ridiculous. Overall difficulty was completely fine, and the course ran fine for the most part.
2. People coming in and just saying everyone is whining and we all play the same course also isn't adding anything to the situation at all.
All I personally want is for everyone on Tour to play smoothly running courses. I just played Malibu with the sun in the sky and got no lag or spikes through the entire round outside of 18 green still. Ran so much smoother. Anyone who is rational can differentiate bad swings and decisions from something that was random. My triple on 3: Completely my fault, had no ghost ball and decided to try to reach the green twice and went out of bounds twice. Triple on #7, probably not my fault at all, made a normal swing into a par 3 and spiked for a randomly nice very very fast and a duck hook 50 yards out of bounds.
But like I said, you can't even blame Dale on lag as he's a PC player and looking for lag and pins isn't even his job. He looks for good challenging courses and just sets up winds and stuff as far as I know.
Between Reston Hills which was laggy throughout the round and had two holes that were basically unplayable and then the lighting spikes from this one, there's plenty of room for people to validly talk in a respectful manner about the process for the courses coming on tour. Like Bob and Mark mentioned, we should always be trying to make any controllable factors as optimal and smooth as possible. Nobody wants to get to a #12 tee or a #18 green and be looking at a slideshow before very slowing a tee shot or very fasting a flop.
So nobody should be complaining about difficulty or this course design at all, we've hardly played a truly tough course this year so far. This was the hardest because of the out of bounds all over the place. I'd say #17 was the only truly hard borderline hole on the course. A miss left or right by a few years could put you 45 yards away. Did I hate it? Yep. Could I have put it to 5 feet? Yep. I've designed holes like that myself tons of times lol.
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Post by theduke21 on Feb 10, 2020 5:17:34 GMT -5
Here's a list, constructive criticism for everyone involved in a civil manner.
Players: Take 30 minutes after your round to relax before you post (for me too). Stop attacking people. If you think the course is too hard, play better. If you think the course is too easy, also play better. Outside of a couple courses this season, the courses we've played have been world class if you can remove some of the lagging issues.
Schedulers: Try to make sure conditions match the course okay and make sure lighting is a good mix of looking good and also giving ample lighting to allow for less lag and fewer shadows. Shadows and this game don't mix well.
Rangers: Take lag spikes seriously. That minor slideshow you encountered on a solo hole might not have felt like a big deal in a casual testing round, but it could cost someone the tournament later on and ultra competitive players aren't going to take it well.
Designers: Mostly for PC, please take into account that console players are going to have a completely different experience when playing your courses. Back on TGC1 I used to have a couple PC designers ask me to play their betas on console before they published to check for lag areas since they couldn't know. Crazily enough, it even went both ways back then. PC players used to have issues with the Delta theme so I had PC players play my Wadi Siji beta and I actually had to change the theme background so it ran smoothly on PC. Be conscious of really heavily planted areas that run close to tee boxes and greens and could cause issues. And try to avoid dark shadows on greens as much as you can even if it creates for better aesthetics from tee boxes. Shadows from 25+ inclination and a reasonable time usually don't cause laggy shadows. Under that can get dicey.
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Post by hippystein on Feb 10, 2020 5:28:17 GMT -5
I totally agree with alot thats been said so far. No blame should lie with dale. If hes pc they have option to adjust frame rates and fancy processors to accomadate pretty much every course. The lighting issue causes loads of grief on some courses. Personally if it was me tho id leave lighting as default on most courses as the course has been playtested using those settings and that lighting package. I notice it in a lot of societies when its changed to much it ruins the course. Ive designed a fair few courses now and know what causes various spikes and avoid them like the plague. Waterfalls, multiplanting in large areas etc. Certain trees. Id also steer clear of lidar versions of most courses cos there are only a few good ones. Ppl bang them out in two weeks and they arent finished to the same spec that a lot of the others are. I get the package works but its nowhere near as refined as the courses from scratch. I put my name forward to review and ranger before but never been asked. The euro tour seems to have a lot of proper quality courses week in week out. Any course can play tough without picking ones that are mega tricked up. You slow some courses down and up the wind then youve got a test. You dont always have to have vfirm vfast on everthing cos some courses arent designed for that and you end up driver wedge on everything. Normal fairways with normal greens with vhigh winds catch people out more cos its harder to judge carry and roll imo.
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Post by TannerBronson on Feb 10, 2020 6:27:52 GMT -5
I was not a fan of the course. Too many table top pins and approaches where if you miss by 15 feet you might as well have missed by 50, I miss pebble beach already. Anyway I didn't play very well, like the last few weeks. Strange because I have been doing pretty good in my society rounds recently, but then I get over here and start putting not to miss rather than just knocking them in. Sorry you didn’t enjoy. I agree with you to a point!
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Post by TannerBronson on Feb 10, 2020 6:33:44 GMT -5
I'm done with scheduling courses. You guys can find a new punching bag and verbally assault them going forward. It was not a pleasure working with you Give it to me guys. I want to come out of this thread bloodied! Would love any feedback you have.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Feb 10, 2020 6:57:29 GMT -5
I'm done with scheduling courses. You guys can find a new punching bag and verbally assault them going forward. It was not a pleasure working with you Give it to me guys. I want to come out of this thread bloodied! Would love any feedback you have. One of the best setups this season. Unfortunately still too easy for the PGA guys.
I just sit back with a drink and laugh at the whiners that play here that still shoot -50
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