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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 19:37:10 GMT -5
Let everyone reading this thread ask themselves this question please.
Question would you be quite Ok if we were competing against each other, you had a crap load of random dispersion and I had none and everything worked normal.?
Yes
No.
Obvious answer is No, if you are answering yes, you are the wrong thread and you need help, more help then this thread will ever provide.
Because Houston, we have spent nearly 6 pages here trying to show everyone, that the status quo is saying "YES"
Not sure how much clearer or simpler I can make that. I could translate to latin if it would help.
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Post by nevadaballin on Mar 2, 2015 19:41:08 GMT -5
Latin would be nice, just to see it  |
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Post by acidflashback on Mar 2, 2015 20:09:57 GMT -5
I can't say Ive noticed this squirting... |
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Post by foolinjection on Mar 2, 2015 20:18:39 GMT -5
I can't say Ive noticed this squirting... Me neither to be brutally honest... Plus "ball squirting" sounds like something Taiwanese women do with ping-pong balls in the dark corners of the internet... |
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Post by Oblong on Mar 2, 2015 20:28:47 GMT -5
I dont want to get involved in this discussion because there is a little air of ill wind hovering...but I will say this, if there is a random random dispersion then sometimes that random dispersion would mean there is no dispersion. In fact they could have it set where no dispersion comes up more often than some dispersion so it therefore wouldn't be fully random dispersion. That could explain a run of no dispersion happening but also the occassional run of some dispersion. I may have to reread what I just wrote to see if that all even makes sense!
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Post by mcbogga on Mar 2, 2015 22:08:39 GMT -5
No one can dispute, offline play is perfect, Designer play is perfect, online play is a random mish mash of randomness. Is that clear enough to tell you clearly, Houston, there's a problem here. In a physics based environment, there should never be randomness. Physics is math and math is always right. Everything happens for a logical reason in physics. Now, whether we can figure out the exact math and then execute it is a different story. But i agree, there is no place for randomness in a golf game. They can nerf the available info needed to work a shot but never, ever should there be randomness. Randomness is sometimes a good substitute for lack of power to simulate / input all variables. Or do you propose a physics simulation that simulates the amount of grass, dirt, water on clubface as it connects with ball? Wear on grooves and clubface? There is always randomness (due to phenomena not yet observed/understood). Even physisists would agree to this. Everyone thought Newton was right until Einstein came along, and now people are butting heads with the limits of Einsteins theory since some results are not consistent..... Math is always right, but the algorithm is always flawed. But you are right in one way that random is not desireable. The best would be to have a timing component to the swing that would determine the initial launch, but have deviations be at the level some are now experiencing and make it humanly impossible to hit the exact right timing with any consistency. Introduce a variation but tied to a known variable. Also - the key issue to me here is that it seems to be affecting some more than others. I still do not have a single case where I can say 100% it happened for myself.... If it was the same for everyone it would be much easier to live with. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 22:08:51 GMT -5
I dont want to get involved in this discussion because there is a little air of ill wind hovering...but I will say this, if there is a random random dispersion then sometimes that random dispersion would mean there is no dispersion. In fact they could have it set where no dispersion comes up more often than some dispersion so it therefore wouldn't be fully random dispersion. That could explain a run of no dispersion happening but also the occassional run of some dispersion. I may have to reread what I just wrote to see if that all even makes sense! Makes perfect sense, and I would say that is exactly what is happening. Call ill wind call it a sense of frustration would be more accurate.
I still think no one cares if the shots are random and there was deviation, as long as it was not random, all is good.
Kind of like the wind, how fair is it if I'm selected for favorable no wind and you get tornado in your face.
That's where you see the frustration, how anyone can be Ok with that, is frustrating. Hard to see the point in needing to argue how that is so not OK.
Get even more frustrating when the target keeps moving, does not exist, ok so it exists but it should. That's a moving target.
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Post by Oblong on Mar 2, 2015 22:48:58 GMT -5
The thing with randomness is that while you may get some bad breaks at inopportune times and the other fellow get some lucky breaks...it does standarize over time. There is a tendancy for people to act like the wind is always in their face on par 5's or that squirts are happening to them more than others, the bigger likelehood is that those times stand out more than when things are going your way. It would take some real data crunching over quite a few rounds to prove there is a flaw in random dispersion that is stacking the odds against certain users (or other factors). If it is happening to everyone equally and the scores are still what they are, I would hate to think how this game would turn into Garts (golf/darts hybrid) if dispersion was removed.
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xusemagru
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 115 
TGCT Name: Ryan O'Donnell
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Post by xusemagru on Mar 2, 2015 23:10:49 GMT -5
I dont think it would turn into garts due to the inability to hit perfectly straight all the time and there not being a true system to read the kick lies and an accurate way to gauge the wind.
Personally i am against any random landing area, deviation, dispersion whatever you want to call it whether it helps me or not. If i set up for a shot and execute it correctly i want it to go where i think it should go (provided i judged all of the other factors correctly). thats just my opinion though
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Post by coruler2 on Mar 2, 2015 23:20:11 GMT -5
Let everyone reading this thread ask themselves this question please. Question would you be quite Ok if we were competing against each other, you had a crap load of random dispersion and I had none and everything worked normal.? Yes No. Obvious answer is No, if you are answering yes, you are the wrong thread and you need help, more help then this thread will ever provide. Because Houston, we have spent nearly 6 pages here trying to show everyone, that the status quo is saying "YES" Not sure how much clearer or simpler I can make that. I could translate to latin if it would help. I think this is right on point, and where the frustration kicks in. Casual round with friends...no biggie for a little dispersion. Completely different experience for everyone completing in a tournament...not alright. This is where the ball squirts, the 92% power, the wind waiting, the controller debate, the video lag, the server lag, the ghost ball loading, aiming marker fuzziness, and all the other variables I can't think of at the moment really negatively impact the experience. It will never be a level experience for all players across all these variables, no matter what you do or how well TGC Tours policies it (and they do a great job). And in a game where 1-2 shots a round is the difference between top5 and 50th, I understand why there's a lot of discussion around the topic. I just wish we heard more from HB instead of everyone where creating special courses and doing differential equations to try to solve these issues. |
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Post by Doyley on Mar 2, 2015 23:28:29 GMT -5
I like the parts where this is being discussed/dissected. Let's keep that going and leave out the animosity that is present in some posts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 23:40:37 GMT -5
The thing with randomness is that while you may get some bad breaks at inopportune times and the other fellow get some lucky breaks...it does standarize over time. There is a tendancy for people to act like the wind is always in their face on par 5's or that squirts are happening to them more than others, the bigger likelehood is that those times stand out more than when things are going your way. It would take some real data crunching over quite a few rounds to prove there is a flaw in random dispersion that is stacking the odds against certain users (or other factors). If it is happening to everyone equally and the scores are still what they are, I would hate to think how this game would turn into Garts (golf/darts hybrid) if dispersion was removed. I'm cool with what you are saying, however it's not in the game on purpose, so the theory that it evens out goes down somewhat. Here's why! WGT and PP both shout deviation as a feature from the rooftops. HBS dead silent. Anybody who knows how to spot this, can easily play offline and see the perfect game this is. It's obvious the issue is a network issue and flaw somewhere, maybe a packet drop, corruption or something is happening.
But it's happening, but not always happening, I checked some data on time of play and found no connection with high traffic either. Yes Mr Ninja that's the reason I was checking, I was not looking for wind patterns.
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Post by Brighttail on Mar 2, 2015 23:41:36 GMT -5
Well I'm glad this topic has finally come up with the tour. Steve and I have been battling with HB for two months trying to figure out their stance on this. So far nothing official other than one dev saying, "The tee box must be NOT level" which is a load of crap cause you are on a tee AND hitting from that same tee I have seen the ball move both left and right.
In the end, back when I had my mouse settings accidentally set for most shots being perfectly straight, I noticed that about 1 in 3 shots would involved ball squirt. Steve and I captures videos and screen shots and found that the amount of ball squirt would go anywhere from 1-5 degrees left/right. I have created a level fairway, at least i thought it was level. Put a tee down. Took several shots. 1 in 3 would squirt. The problem is even if the tee wasn't level, then the ball should ALWAYS squirt in one direction, this was not the case. 1 in 3 (average) would squirt right or left, between 1 and 5 degrees. The only constant was that shorter shots are going to have less deviation because the shot is shorter, while longer shots are going to have more distance to travel and thus end up further away from your original aiming point.
We spent a long time trying everything to come up with a way to recreate ball squirt in a predictable fashion and came up wth nothing. I have been in the fairway of a par 5 and did no adjustments what-so-ever. The wind was 10mph right at me. My first shot ended up hitting into the water about 25-30 feet to the left of the pin. I got to shoot the exact same shot again and did so with the wind not changing. This time my shot ended up 25 feet to the RIGHT of the pin in the sand. Both shots were perfectly straight shots. That is a 50-55 foot difference in ball squirt. I might also point out that both shots landed and stopped (water/bunker), so if they had rolled out the distance from 208 yards out would have been MUCH greater.
In the end there are two possibilities with HB:
1. This is INTENDED to help randomize the game and keep people from "mastering" it.
2. This is an "Undocumented Feature" (ie BUG) that they are unwilling to admit to.
If it is the former, they may end up leaving it, tweaking it or removing it depending on player feedback.
If it is the latter, they have to prioritize it and frankly looking at their "to do" list, this would be considered LOW. The reason is while it has some effect on the game it isn't mission critical.
Either way, I would ask that anyone who has an "in" with someone like Loren to put him on the spot and have him answer once and for all if this is intended or a bug. Enough people have now experienced it across all platforms that it has become an issue that is impacting our scores and is diminishing the fun of the game.
All that being said, something I have noticed is that it seems to have gotten WORSE since I first brought it up two months ago. I'm not sure if I'm just more aware of it now that my mouse is set properly and I'm no longer swinging perfect and the effects of the ball squirt is more pronounced or if they have been fiddling with it last patch and made it worse. I remember 2 months ago following a few elite player's rounds and not noticing it nearly as much with their shots as i did with mine. Steve and I thought it was limited to the PC platform, but gradually it became more noticeable to others.
**ADDED NOTE** I have seen it on non-published courses but it is far more rare, like maybe 4-5 shots a round. Once published watch out.
In the end I haven't found any pattern here. Regular shots, lofted, delofted, fade and draw, it happens about the same on all shots, with the exception of putting and chipping. I have even seen it on a pitch or two from 80 yards out. My suggestion is someone sets up ONE post on HB forums under bugs and have everyone who has posted here go over there and create a post or two to show the developers it is happening to everyone, across every platforms, on every course, in practice courses when we make completely flat lies, ect., and then see their response. Personally after dealing with this for 2 months, i'm not holding my breath.
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Post by kulch on Mar 3, 2015 2:40:19 GMT -5
lol ball squirting has become a virus. i reckon some people never had symptoms prior to it being discovered. now everyones got the case of the squirts, there is an outbreak. the conspiracy about memory is interesting, what started this thing, how can we contain it and take it out!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 3:44:40 GMT -5
Nukes will win the war
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