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Post by CiB0RG on Aug 22, 2019 11:10:34 GMT -5
Sure! How's next March sound? |
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Post by b101 on Aug 22, 2019 11:12:50 GMT -5
FYI TO THE PARTICIPANTS I am sending out all of the judging notes to you through PMs. Over the next few weeks I am going to try to get all of them out. If you would like so see your notes ASAP just send me a PM saying so and I will prioritize it. Carry on! Just a huge thanks to you and all of the judges for the feedback. It’s really useful and rooted in positivity. Whilst there’s some I will happily disagree with, there’s loads that I can totally take on board and use to get better. Also, always fun how one judge’s favourite hole is another’s weak spot - puts the whole thing in perspective and makes you realise you will never please everyone (tagging TannerBronson as I think you need to read that lots of times). Ultimately, I’m really glad that there were bits of my course that each judge liked and I executed most of my visions. Based on what I’ve seen from my notes, the CC playability came into it way more than I think we all thought it would. Personally, I didn’t know what the difficulty level was for CC (still don’t) and just made my course as I wanted it to be. I’d bet any money that’s where Rocky and Necedah have been hit as I found both of those tougher than mine. Live and learn, eh? As one final question to the community as a whole, why do we not give some feedback like this on course publishes generally? I can’t help but feel that part of the disappointment with contests is because in the completed courses threads, we are all frightened to say anything that might be remotely negative... As a teacher, that just baffles me given that clearly we do see those things but just keep quiet. Surely, if we want to get better, a bit more of a two stars and a wish (corny but it works) approach would make more sense than just telling each other how great everything is? Thanks to this contest, I will now be looking at difficulty, not throwing in novelty hole ideas, flattened tees and green sizes more closely. Which is all great, but I’d have never got that feedback if I hadn’t entered, whereas I reckon any half decent designer would have spotted it. Just a thought... |
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742 
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Aug 22, 2019 11:15:29 GMT -5
honestly? It's because posting constructive criticism publicly often comes back to bite you in the butt. Easier to say "Oh what a nice course I really liked this that and the other" and just move on.
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Post by b101 on Aug 22, 2019 11:16:41 GMT -5
honestly? It's because posting constructive criticism publicly often comes back to bite you in the butt. Easier to say "Oh what a nice course I really liked this that and the other" and just move on. I get that, genuinely, but it’s a real shame |
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Post by CiB0RG on Aug 22, 2019 11:23:28 GMT -5
honestly? It's because posting constructive criticism publicly often comes back to bite you in the butt. Easier to say "Oh what a nice course I really liked this that and the other" and just move on. I get that, genuinely, but it’s a real shame A lot of times if a designer is looking for constructive criticism on a course they will ask for it privately from people they respect as designers and not leave it open for the public to bash. Sometimes people get sour when they get criticism from random people that they do not agree with. For the most part the completed courses threads stay "praise-y" and positive just to encourage people that their work is appreciated and to avoid any hard feelings. You never know who is going to be open-minded and who is going to be defensive. When these courses take so long for designers to build, feedback can be a touchy thing. Just my 2 cents. |
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Post by b101 on Aug 22, 2019 11:27:07 GMT -5
That makes sense. Didn't realise the amount of stuff that goes on privately. I'm ok with that.
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Post by lessthanbread on Aug 22, 2019 14:05:18 GMT -5
I think a lot of it has to do with how one phrases their criticism and the tone of their message overall. For me, I phrase it as more of a suggestion than criticism. Like "Hey for your next course, try this..." And praise with criticism goes a long way too. Don't just highlight the bad but also make sure you throw something you liked in there as well, no matter how bad the course is.
Also, I'll usually send my reviews in a private message. 1) Because they're kind of long and I'd rather not take up space on their course thread and 2) I see the course completion area and the threads designers post in it to be their space to promote their courses, like an advertisement of sorts.
But having said that, I don't mind and I encourage people to send me any and all feedback on my courses whether in a message or on my course thread
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Post by b101 on Aug 22, 2019 15:56:44 GMT -5
I think a lot of it has to do with how one phrases their criticism and the tone of their message overall. For me, I phrase it as more of a suggestion than criticism. Like "Hey for your next course, try this..." And praise with criticism goes a long way too. Don't just highlight the bad but also make sure you throw something you liked in there as well, no matter how bad the course is. Also, I'll usually send my reviews in a private message. 1) Because they're kind of long and I'd rather not take up space on their course thread and 2) I see the course completion area and the threads designers post in it to be their space to promote their courses, like an advertisement of sorts. But having said that, I don't mind and I encourage people to send me any and all feedback on my courses whether in a message or on my course thread Oh don't worry, I'll be sure to spam your Rookie Course completed thread with everything I find!  |
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Post by lessthanbread on Aug 22, 2019 17:19:09 GMT -5
I think a lot of it has to do with how one phrases their criticism and the tone of their message overall. For me, I phrase it as more of a suggestion than criticism. Like "Hey for your next course, try this..." And praise with criticism goes a long way too. Don't just highlight the bad but also make sure you throw something you liked in there as well, no matter how bad the course is. Also, I'll usually send my reviews in a private message. 1) Because they're kind of long and I'd rather not take up space on their course thread and 2) I see the course completion area and the threads designers post in it to be their space to promote their courses, like an advertisement of sorts. But having said that, I don't mind and I encourage people to send me any and all feedback on my courses whether in a message or on my course thread Oh don't worry, I'll be sure to spam your Rookie Course completed thread with everything I find! Absolutely! I’m designing it specifically to be featured on Dumpster Fire |
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Aug 22, 2019 17:50:09 GMT -5
I've got a question, do designers find it harder to design for a specific flight that is outside their own flight? For example would a PGA level player struggle designing for the CC Contest or a CC player find it hard in the Major Design Contest?
Or do the conditions come into play more when courses are assigned to certain flights.
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Post by Violinguy69 on Aug 23, 2019 7:28:43 GMT -5
I think designers that are less skilled players have more trouble designing tough courses than top players designing easier ones. I fall into the "less skilled" category as a player so sometimes what I think is unfair or too difficult on my course might be completely acceptable for Pro tour guys. It's out of my comfort zone to just say "to hell with the players' feelings" and design something really nasty.
As for criticism, I always try to accentuate the positive and then phrase my negative comments as "it might have been more effective if you did xyz instead of abc on this hole." I think criticism must have suggestions for improvement or else it's just negativity.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 10:05:58 GMT -5
Wtf is my course doing in the top 5? Necedah got robbed here. Gotta love contests. I think we all underestimated the 'Andre Effect'  |
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Aug 23, 2019 19:55:37 GMT -5
...yeah just keep saying it's name recognition... that'll be helpful and good
*if that's not what you're doing...sorry...but it sure LOOKS like what you're doing*
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Aug 24, 2019 0:31:00 GMT -5
^^ I’ll echo what Reeb said.
Yeah Andre has won contests here, but on the same token, I’m sure there are a couple of contests where he felt like he should have finished better than he did. Ask any of the guys who’ve done enough of these and they’ll say likely the same thing.
Having sat in a couple of judging war rooms, while it’s almost impossible to be oblivious of who designed a course by the end of the deal, I can say virtually all the conversation focuses on the COURSE and it’s merits, not the designer.
As for this instance, Andre definitely had a course that was in to quarter of my rankings, so it’s no fluke he got into the final 5. He has a real nice course and deserves to be there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 14:42:52 GMT -5
I think arielatom might have been joking above. I honestly believe that 99% of designers in our ranks are confident these contests are being run fairly and judged very well. The other 1% are just wrong. 😜 |
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