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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 10, 2019 13:04:55 GMT -5
Thank you and paulus for the explanation. I suspected it couldn't be so easy  I'm anyway a bit skeptic about the fact that someone can take this advantage being not aware of doing something wrong. I mean..if someone realize that he's using a swing that allows to his ball to be always straight..there's no need to be De Coubertin to suspect that is a cheat. And this simply cause even someone with a IQ of 16, after 100 rounds, starts to understand how wind, slopes, distance and lie works, more or less. So the challenge, in this game, is EXACTLY to read all these things AND to hit always straight the ball in the same time. Without this, where is the challenge? And I also will never trust who says "yes but this is my natural swing". These are bullsh!Ts, for me. I bet that 100 players on 100 who takes in their hands for the first time a controller to hit a ball in any game of golf, will never try how could ever work a crooked short swing. It can happens only for a mistake. But if someone starts to use it until it became his "natural swing", it can be just for one reason : He's no good enough to play the game and, being a sad puppet who can't accept to lose, decided to gain this ridiculous advantage. There is not the shadow of innocence, here. Never. Is for this that I'm so pissed against who plays in this way. Is an insult to the hard work of every player to improve. And to a game BASED on fair play. Much more than any other, probably. Is for this. Amen Now if everybody who is pissed about it would post in HB forums they might admit there is a problem. www.hb-studios.com/forum/index.php/board,102.0.html I'm not sure if you are serious or ironic, but reading some answer from the devs here and there in that forum, I really don't think they cares minimally about this. To be fully honest, months ago I already tried to talk to them about a bigger issue and I suspect that they don't care minimally about us at all. I can be wrong but is what I feel. Is not a case if in that forum I wrote maybe 7-8 posts. I have also to say that, reflecting a bit about all the posts I'm reading in these days..now I'm starting also to look with different eyes about one of the main reasons why someone (me included) looks a bit favorably to the proposal to implement mandatory pro clubs, as something that is said "could fight the short flickers". But now that I start to understand better how the whole thing works, I see this is not exactly the truth. The truth is that the cheaters will continue to cheat, and people who plays fairly will continue to be penalized. But just a bit less. In short, it sounds like if someone who is raping you by months should tell you "do you know? Now we'll continue to take all your a$$es every week, but now, before we do it, you could use vaseline instead than popper, sand and salt. Are you happy???" (Sorry for the vulgarity, but all this situation is vulgar. If not grotesque) (Yeah..i know it. This thing is just driving me mad)  |
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Post by GW_Hope on Aug 10, 2019 14:11:32 GMT -5
I am serious. Sure HB can ignore a few posters like me as they have done. But, if they got slammed by numerous people on the same topic they might be forced to take it seriously. Just look at today’s politics. It works the same. Post and keep posting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 14:29:26 GMT -5
I am serious. Sure HB can ignore a few posters like me as they have done. But, if they got slammed by numerous people on the same topic they might be forced to take it seriously. Just look at today’s politics. It works the same. Post and keep posting. I went over there and saw a post by one of their staff saying master club users are less than 25% of players. I don't think it's going to be a high priority for them seeing as they're focused on the casual player. I looked at their tutorial video on youtube that they have a link to and the example they have for a fast downswing has a short swing line in the feedback box and that is not on PS4. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 14:43:22 GMT -5
Your description of playing Pro clubs doesn’t sound like a bad thing. It would make courses play way more realistically, even once you’ve worked in your roll outs.. I don’t think anyone wants people shooting crazy scores. You’re a top player. Would like to hear how other top players went playing the PGA event using Pro. Just pretend someone nice®️ suggested it. Well I think the courses we play would have to be altered as well. Having 2x2 yard landing areas like this past week just aren't practical. Having 560 yard par4s wouldn't work either. I would even argue the ball physics would need to be tightened up by HB... they're not that realistic in 2019 like they were in TGC2. I see pros on tour sticking 5 irons... here that's a 10 yard roll out. I just tried next weeks elimination event at Majesty Island with pro clubs. Medium wind and max speed/firmness. Shot -7 with 1 bogey and parred 3 of the par 5's. I was still hitting offline approach shots, but driving didn't seem to have much fear even with the narrow landing zones on that course. The flickers will still flick and have that advantage, but after playing that round I'd prefer to stick with master clubs for the challenge it gives me. Pro clubs just seemed like auto pilot. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 14:45:58 GMT -5
Pro Clubs for me are in no way like auto pilot.
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Post by mde8965 on Aug 10, 2019 14:49:26 GMT -5
mrohde4 - maybe I am naive. I never use ghosts or go out hunting for video feeds on players. The hunt for cheaters mentality would totally suck all the fun out of this game for me. But you are saying the short swing thing, when somebody means to do it” looks pretty much identical. That’s all news to me and you allude to controller mods to achieve such swing could be used. Again I never thought of that. I was of the idea that short swingers swings basically looked like a banana going from 5 o’clock to 1 o’clock and only spanning about the bottom 50% of the grid. And in order to do so they pulled back the stick when then flung it forward, just barely. Obviously I would agree that using a devise to create a swing is totally wrong. The rest of it I’m not sure. After all in TGC1 mouse players basically had to move their hand an inch or less to swing (almost like a twitch) and nobody called them cheaters. I use my right thumb only on the right stick. Hold the controller about 20 degrees left to compensate for the natural arch of your thumb. And pull back to the plastic and push forward to the plastic but let go as soon as forward contact is made. Otherwise, and due to a slight tremor which is amplified when I’m nervous, holding the stick at the front plastic results in a sort of T shaped swing which definitely impacts ball flight. But the fact I let go sometime results in the line only going up 80%, other times 90 or 100. Occasionally I get a 60 percent that actually has a tail coming back from top down. I remember in TGC1 I would pull back and slam the stick forward as hard as possible to overcome the tremor. Maybe that’s why it took me so long to get out of CC. Appreciate the discussion. The flick discovery wasn’t the result of “cheat-hunting” rather more of a stumble upon a troubling pattern. In previous TGC iterations, the swing line for flickers was extrapolated out based on the initial partial line. In TGC2019, the swing-to-result was altered to 1:1 of input to result. This is my amateur understanding of a complex process. First timers always always always touch both ends of the plastic. The backswing MUST touch the plastic, yet we’re supposed to believe that a partial downswing is proper? If the game was truly designed for shortswinging, they’d never sell one copy. The game would be too difficult. My best solution Is separate by flicking/non-flicking. If possible. Or put up a tab in similar fashion as consoles. Gonna require video submissions, but that wouldn’t violate anyone’s privacy. This is a private league. More work? Yes, and I volunteer my knowledge to help. Been around since 2015. Otherwise we have status quo and nobody is arguing the system isn’t broke. So two solutions to the problem if HB could give a damn would be: 1). Swing only goes to 60% top then get 60% distance. 2). Swing gets interpolated for missing data (like it was presumably in TGC2. Neither thing seems like a big programming change. If HB cared at all Selfishly though, I don’t want to see a game where the only way to swing is to hold stick at top plastic. Or I’d be in trouble I think. I cannot get rid of my tremor. Question. With Pro clubs is the short swing (line only partially up the grid) a thing or is it interpolated? |
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 10, 2019 15:20:57 GMT -5
I am serious. Sure HB can ignore a few posters like me as they have done. But, if they got slammed by numerous people on the same topic they might be forced to take it seriously. Just look at today’s politics. It works the same. Post and keep posting. Eh...is a good example. And in politics it works cause in some way the people involved are a lot. Great numbers. You know...some day ago, more or less when the survey has been proposed, I was full of enthusiastic revolutionary spirit and I was ready to do exactly this. So I also proposed to check the new game (when it will be released) and to buy it only if our requests were satisfied in some way, or boycott the product. I was ready to go to the war This cause i was, for some stupid optimistic reason, convinced that we here in TGCT were something near nothing less the 30% of the customers of this game. But someone, quite soon, roughly awaked me revealing the simple fact that probably we are nearer to the 5%, than to the 30%. If this is true..there is no war or revolution to start. Only to hope. Maybe to pray? But there's actually not so much we can obtain, if we are really such a minority. I also read a post in which one of the devs explains that their data shows that the master players are absolutely a minority into a minority. If I should complain about short flick's advantage, probably the answer could be "we already know it, but is not a priority to solve". The worst part is that in these last weeks I'm starting to have some doubt that the next game will be really better of this (at least about all those flaws and issues we need the most to see solved). In any case..we should solve the problems we have right now by ourselves. We're trying..is admirable, but is pretty clear we can only choice our poison, for the next season. |
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Post by GW_Hope on Aug 10, 2019 15:36:07 GMT -5
Appreciate the discussion. The flick discovery wasn’t the result of “cheat-hunting” rather more of a stumble upon a troubling pattern. In previous TGC iterations, the swing line for flickers was extrapolated out based on the initial partial line. In TGC2019, the swing-to-result was altered to 1:1 of input to result. This is my amateur understanding of a complex process. First timers always always always touch both ends of the plastic. The backswing MUST touch the plastic, yet we’re supposed to believe that a partial downswing is proper? If the game was truly designed for shortswinging, they’d never sell one copy. The game would be too difficult. My best solution Is separate by flicking/non-flicking. If possible. Or put up a tab in similar fashion as consoles. Gonna require video submissions, but that wouldn’t violate anyone’s privacy. This is a private league. More work? Yes, and I volunteer my knowledge to help. Been around since 2015. Otherwise we have status quo and nobody is arguing the system isn’t broke. So two solutions to the problem if HB could give a damn would be: 1). Swing only goes to 60% top then get 60% distance. 2). Swing gets interpolated for missing data (like it was presumably in TGC2. Neither thing seems like a big programming change. If HB cared at all Selfishly though, I don’t want to see a game where the only way to swing is to hold stick at top plastic. Or I’d be in trouble I think. I cannot get rid of my tremor. Question. With Pro clubs is the short swing (line only partially up the grid) a thing or is it interpolated? Two more solutions increase the percent that registers a swing to say 80% or another option cut off all swing at 80% so a full swing line would only count accuracy up 80% giving everybody the advantage. |
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 10, 2019 15:42:02 GMT -5
About pro clubs, I think is not exact to say that is like to play with the autopilot but is absolutely clear that if you spent months playing with master clubs, learning and understanding all the nuances, to play with pro clubs can be only too easy. And not enough enjoyable. There are no doubts on this. I was thinking...if for some reason in the end the admins should take the decision to switch to pro clubs..why don't change something in the setup to keep the game enjoyable even with a easier set of clubs? I know i already proposed it, but I'm still convinced is a good idea and I had still no serious feedback (pro o con), so I propose it again. I think that to be enjoyable, the game is not just about how much difficult are the clubs. What if, to keep the game a bit more difficult and various, we don't play the PGA tour with no scout cam and grid lie and the Euro tour with no scout cam but with grid lie? We should use a easier set of clubs, but to be a top player then should be required other skills, normally not needed. No counting how much more appreciated could be a lot of great courses we play (especially the real courses, I mean, normally raped every time by our bear players). It could not be exciting as a challenge? But..above all this..there is another reason why I wish this change. The fact that if some other skill should be needed to compete at the best level, this could be another way to minimize the advantage of the short flick players, cause the game would be no more just about to shot straight and reading wind and breaks. I can't see bad things in this changes. But..as I already said..i'm still a cc player. Can't be me to push for this kind of change. Please..why you pro tour players don't think seriously on this (at least if there are no reasons why this idea in fact is no good that I simply can't see), proposing a poll or a serious debate? |
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Post by gdog on Aug 10, 2019 16:05:01 GMT -5
Spoiler.
Forcing pro clubs will never happen.
It was a throwaway question added to the survey.
If anything happens they might split the tours but I still have my doubts.
That way I guess if you wanna play masters knowing the platform imbalances, you can.
Then you pro lot can battle it out with your own thing.
Still though, pro and masters currently don't battle for movements marks. This was fixed mid way in the season.
Taking away grids or scouts cams won't happen either. people already have that option with TST and that barely breaks 100 players.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 10, 2019 18:02:12 GMT -5
Spoiler. Forcing pro clubs will never happen. It was a throwaway question added to the survey. If anything happens they might split the tours but I still have my doubts. That way I guess if you wanna play masters knowing the platform imbalances, you can. Then you pro lot can battle it out with your own thing. Still though, pro and masters currently don't battle for movements marks. This was fixed mid way in the season. Taking away grids or scouts cams won't happen either. people already have that option with TST and that barely breaks 100 players. Thank you for the answer. Is more or less my same feeling. Too many people would be unhappy with the switch to pro clubs. And even with the unbalance it stays a great challenge, to play with master clubs. It would be a really sad solution..and I think we all are totally aware of this. But about scout cam and lie grid, I disagree, but only cause I think that, behind the low participation in the tst, the real reason (and the option that scares and take away the majority of players) is the shut off of the grid on greens. That makes the game a completely different beast. I'm not an ace, but everytime and in every game I played without a scout cam, is just a matter to practice a course a pair of time, to menage it. I don't think is something that could affects so much the scores how it could seems. But it improve a lot the sense of realism. And valorizes a lot more the courses we play. Honestly I wish to see this change even using master clubs, on PGA and Euro Tour. No counting the fact that is also a bit strange that all the three pro tour have no differences in setup. I think every pro player could menage the change. I'm not so sure about the impact of the lie grid, cause I have still never played without it in this game. Anyway..thank you for the feedback.  |
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Post by Warwick Todd on Aug 10, 2019 18:47:13 GMT -5
Well I think the courses we play would have to be altered as well. Having 2x2 yard landing areas like this past week just aren't practical. Having 560 yard par4s wouldn't work either. I would even argue the ball physics would need to be tightened up by HB... they're not that realistic in 2019 like they were in TGC2. I see pros on tour sticking 5 irons... here that's a 10 yard roll out. I just tried next weeks elimination event at Majesty Island with pro clubs. Medium wind and max speed/firmness. Shot -7 with 1 bogey and parred 3 of the par 5's. I was still hitting offline approach shots, but driving didn't seem to have much fear even with the narrow landing zones on that course. The flickers will still flick and have that advantage, but after playing that round I'd prefer to stick with master clubs for the challenge it gives me. Pro clubs just seemed like auto pilot. For me it’s not about the difficulty, it’s about knowing that I’m playing against people playing the same difficulty. Using Masters clubs I’m at a disadvantage to PC and PS players because of the broken equality between platforms, which means people that can’t play as well are shooting similar scores - which leaves a bitter taste for me. Just my 2c. I’ll stick with the beginner tour and know that even if someone does choose to cheat by flicking, the advantage is so minuscule it won’t matter. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 18:56:39 GMT -5
MASTER CLUB LEAGUE -PGA Tour -Web.com/Korn Ferry Tour -Challenge Circuit (A-Z) PRO CLUB LEAGUE -PGA Tour -Korn Ferry Tour -Challenge Circuit (A-Z) BEGINNER CLUB LEAGUE -PGA Tour -Korn Ferry Tour -Challenge Circuit (A-Z) Job done! Ps...I still believe all clubs should play together and scores should be the divider but meh, if people are gonna b%& and moan about clubsets (you never hear a pro club player moan that masters club beat them with their ‘cheating’ distance advantage) then probably best just to divide leagues by clubsets. *everyone in europe has left the chat* Also 10 flights for the 50 or so people on BCT? Semantics. Just have three different leagues for each clubset and then filter down the groups from there for however many people play them. So beginner clubs would only have PGA Tour until they have enough players to warrant the Korn Ferry tour (or European Tour or whatever the development tour to the PGA Tour is called). |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 22:57:27 GMT -5
So two solutions to the problem if HB could give a damn would be: 1). Swing only goes to 60% top then get 60% distance. 2). Swing gets interpolated for missing data (like it was presumably in TGC2. Neither thing seems like a big programming change. If HB cared at all Selfishly though, I don’t want to see a game where the only way to swing is to hold stick at top plastic. Or I’d be in trouble I think. I cannot get rid of my tremor. Question. With Pro clubs is the short swing (line only partially up the grid) a thing or is it interpolated? Two more solutions increase the percent that registers a swing to say 80% or another option cut off all swing at 80% so a full swing line would only count accuracy up 80% giving everybody the advantage. I don’t know how many of you were around in season 1 when Swingate happened halfway through the season. HB tweaked the swing and all hell broke loose. Quite a few players were saying they had to now slam the thumbstick forward to get a 100% swing. The swing didn’t change whatsoever for me as I always hit the top plastic with the stick. Fast forward 4 years and some of those who had the issues after that tweak were getting pulled by the API as short swingers when we did the exhibition events. Maybe its just a coincidence, but I doubt HB will change anything now anyway. Has there even been a patch or swing tune this year? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 23:56:53 GMT -5
You cant ascertain who is flicking just by looking at the api data. I suspect there are many people doing it without even realizing it's a thing, mostly on ps4, because even with it it is nearly impossible to fail the api check. I still fall into the camp that it is a problem with the game that makes the swing style a 'cheat', but the players doing it and have been doing it for some time, aren't doing anything necessarily wrong, until the game makes it wrong. It is an advantage though, and one that can not be reliably detected by any means we have. If you want to see a failing graphic, my post history contains what you're looking for, probably over a month ago now. I have since moved to bct and adopted a new swing. No desire to return to the pga whatsoever, and hoping the issue is resolved with the iteration. Just saying, mandatory pro clubs will limit the advantage of the flick Thank you and paulus for the explanation. I suspected it couldn't be so easy I'm anyway a bit skeptic about the fact that someone can take this advantage being not aware of doing something wrong. I mean..if someone realize that he's using a swing that allows to his ball to be always straight..there's no need to be De Coubertin to suspect that is a cheat. And this simply cause even someone with a IQ of 16, after 100 rounds, starts to understand how wind, slopes, distance and lie works, more or less. So the challenge, in this game, is EXACTLY to read all these things AND to hit always straight the ball in the same time. Without this, where is the challenge? And I also will never trust who says "yes but this is my natural swing". These are bullsh!Ts, for me. I bet that 100 players on 100 who takes in their hands for the first time a controller to hit a ball in any game of golf, will never try how could ever work a crooked short swing. It can happens only for a mistake. But if someone starts to use it until it became his "natural swing", it can be just for one reason : He's no good enough to play the game and, being a sad puppet who can't accept to lose, decided to gain this ridiculous advantage. There is not the shadow of innocence, here. Never. Is for this that I'm so pissed against who plays in this way. Is an insult to the hard work of every player to improve. And to a game BASED on fair play. Much more than any other, probably. Is for this. I can 1000% tell you that it is my natural swing. It was never an advantage, nor even known in TGC1 or TGC2. It only crept up in TGC2019. My very first round was an extremely good score and I had short swings in that round. I mentioned how I wondered about the difficulty. This was before anything about the short swing was known. I bought the game on the day of release, by the way.
I have been trying for months on end to adjust it to meet API standards and hit a full line swing after I got API pulled once after 20+ weeks of passing (both regular tours and off and on TST rounds). I have not been pulled since, but I am constantly trying to get full lines and not short swing, but it is a constant battle. I am not trying to pull the wool over your eyes here at all. I am being honest with you and I have no reason to deceive you being a member here since 2015.
There are some who have this as a natural swing on PS4. There are those who get occasional short swings on PS4, but mostly full lines. There are those who get full lines a great majority of the time. The blame here seems to be on HB for having this swing seemingly be a PS4 only thing. If not for that, this would not be an issue. Again, if one can short swing on other consoles, please correct me.
It is not a "mistake" for some PS4 players. I say that for those who have this as a natural swing. There are those who have also learned to short swing on PS4 as well when it wasn't their natural swing after reading the forums here or talked with other players in game. As far as I know, this is the only platform that can achieve the "flick" advantage. If someone can attest to otherwise on PC or XB1 reliably able to short swing to an advantage, feel free to set me straight.
Please understand that the fault lies on HB first and foremost here. I don't ask for apologies or acceptance after that, but I do stress on #1 that HB has a broken swing on PS4 for sure.
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