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Post by mde8965 on Aug 16, 2019 11:33:57 GMT -5
I for one absolutely DO NOT support pro and master clubs being used on the same leaderboard at least at the pro level. Heck I don’t even like it at the cc level and I don’t even play there. If somebody playing master clubs wins a certain week they will be criticized and called a Flicker (people arguing that’s the only possible reason they won). If somebody on the pro clubs wins in a certain week they will be criticized because they use kiddie clubs and a lower difficulty level. You think the PGA threads are bad now. .
Heck if they did that I am absolutely sure that I would not play anymore. Not that I count. Before they did that I would prefer them to just mandate pro clubs everywhere. With no option for master clubs.i think you would have a mass exodus from the current PGA and some in the lower tiers (unless that’s the goal?) I probably wouldn’t play on TGGT anymore. I don’t even like to play society events when the leaderboard include multiple club sets (difficulty levels).
That all said it’s not that I am insensitive to the issues with Xbox and the Flicker phenomenon. But I feel that any changes from what we were already doing will break things worse than they are now. Only scenario that would make more people happy than there are now would be completely separate tours for Pro and Master. And that’s not happening.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 16, 2019 12:02:24 GMT -5
I for one absolutely DO NOT support pro and master clubs being used on the same leaderboard at least at the pro level. Heck I don’t even like it at the cc level and I don’t even play there. If somebody playing master clubs wins a certain week they will be criticized and called a Flicker (people arguing that’s the only possible reason they won). If somebody on the pro clubs wins in a certain week they will be criticized because they use kiddie clubs and a lower difficulty level. You think the PGA threads are bad now. . Heck if they did that I am absolutely sure that I would not play anymore. Not that I count. Before they did that I would prefer them to just mandate pro clubs everywhere. With no option for master clubs.i think you would have a mass exodus from the current PGA and some in the lower tiers (unless that’s the goal?) I probably wouldn’t play on TGGT anymore. I don’t even like to play society events when the leaderboard include multiple club sets (difficulty levels). That all said it’s not that I am insensitive to the issues with Xbox and the Flicker phenomenon. But I feel that any changes from what we were already doing will break things worse than they are now. Only scenario that would make more people happy than there are now would be completely separate tours for Pro and Master. And that’s not happening. I don't think we will ever see pro & master clubs both available on pro tours (and I hope so), this choice would solve...nothing, probably. But above all..at the moment is useless to be too much concerned. We have only hypothesis. And probably in these days and weeks we already said...well, more or less all of what it could be said. I think that every point of view has been well explained and more or less every pro and cons of every possible choice is clear for all of us. Has been a great and useful debate, we could be happy of this. Now we can just wait. I'm confident. Not about a solution that will makes all of us happy..i know is simply impossible to have something like this...but about the fact that admins love this tour as we love..if not a lot more. No one of them should ever make a decision against the interests of the collectivity. Be patient..soon we'll know what will change. |
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 16, 2019 13:06:34 GMT -5
If we do go to Pro clubs only, can there be an option to play Master clubs at your own discretion? This describes the first half of CC season 5, and it ended with enough players complaining that Pro Club players were hogging all the promotion marks that the rules were changed to split promo marks by clubset. Basically, the consensus opinion of players playing under this model was that it didn't work fairly and they preferred to separate the tours by clubset. I can't say they're wrong. Once the rules were changed to split the promo marks, these complaints disappeared, and there was no real push-back by players using Pro Clubs. My only complaint was that this logic should apply to demotion marks too. Special credit to players like Giraffe72 for pushing this. I had been arguing against it in conversation (not really that it was a bad idea, but i was arguing that the perception should be "Master Clubs allowed, but Pro Clubs strongly recommended"), but it's clear now that splitting the competition was the best option. |
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 16, 2019 13:30:23 GMT -5
This discussion has been a bit discouraging for me the past few days. Just kind of sucks being told that wanting to play master clubs is selfish, and not wanting to force everyone to use pro clubs means I'm not valuing fairness, and therefor I'm putting how I want to play the game ahead of being fair to everyone - I just don't see it like that, and think it's a big leap to say that those of us who would like to play with master clubs don't care about fair play. I know this is a week-old quote, but since I've been critical of your position, I do want to address it. I think we're talking a bit past each other here. I do not think your position is one of selfishness, especially considering that you're not part of the advantaged group. I also do not think that you do not care about fair play. I think that you're willing to accept that you're at a disadvantage in order to keep a single cross-platform tour that forces Master Clubs. Of course, the idea of forcing Master Clubs is rooted in the idea that the Tours should be fair (and challenging for the top 1/3 of players). My criticism was overly harsh, and for that I apologize. but going pro only would pretty much kill the game for me - but maybe that time has come, anyway. That's reasonable. If the game isn't fun, why play? |
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 16, 2019 13:44:30 GMT -5
Cheers Patrick, no hard feelings from my side, we'll just see how it plays out.
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Post by greyosprey on Aug 16, 2019 14:24:19 GMT -5
If we do go to Pro clubs only, can there be an option to play Master clubs at your own discretion? This describes the first half of CC season 5, and it ended with enough players complaining that Pro Club players were hogging all the promotion marks that the rules were changed to split promo marks by clubset. Basically, the consensus opinion of players playing under this model was that it didn't work fairly and they preferred to separate the tours by clubset. I can't say they're wrong. Once the rules were changed to split the promo marks, these complaints disappeared, and there was no real push-back by players using Pro Clubs. My only complaint was that this logic should apply to demotion marks too. Special credit to players like Giraffe72 for pushing this. I had been arguing against it in conversation (not really that it was a bad idea, but i was arguing that the perception should be "Master Clubs allowed, but Pro Clubs strongly recommended"), but it's clear now that splitting the competition was the best option. Understood. I think the difference this time around would be the site (and rules) would be set up with Pro Clubs being the default club choice. It could be made very clear that there will be no special consideration to people choosing to use Master Clubs. But, over time, it could just become the old situation all over again. I'm wondering if this is a mute point to begin with. In game, when setting up an event, is club choice even a (lockable) option, or is that done behind the scenes through this site/coding/etc? Heck, maybe it's as simple as people that want to play Master Clubs do just that. I know I've played other tours that allow aids and turned some of them off (usually green grids). Of course, I'm not "assigned" to those tours, so maybe that makes it different. ? |
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 16, 2019 15:08:32 GMT -5
Club set is not lockable in-game by the society admins, but TGCT does receive club set info from HB via API, so clubs are policed after-the-fact.
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Post by greyosprey on Aug 16, 2019 16:30:52 GMT -5
Club set is not lockable in-game by the society admins, but TGCT does receive club set info from HB via API, so clubs are policed after-the-fact. So tecnically, if TGCTours went pro clubs, we could still use Master clubs. Seems the solution is already at hand. Just need a "No complaining/whining policy" for those that choose to compete with Master clubs. This is assuming the site went the pro club route. But good to know it can be done if admin allows it. ☺ |
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Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Aug 16, 2019 16:49:13 GMT -5
So if the tours go pro, but still allow the choicee to use the 'disadvanraged' master clubs, will pro club users think the masters players are not playing fair, even with the so called disadvantage?
I mean, if I, on XB, knowing it is harder to compete with masters against pros, but choose to play them anyway, are people going to get bent out of shape if I happen to place high in my CC-Am tour?
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 16, 2019 17:09:40 GMT -5
So if the tours go pro, but still allow the choicee to use the 'disadvanraged' master clubs, will pro club users think the masters players are not playing fair, even with the so called disadvantage? I mean, if I, on XB, knowing it is harder to compete with masters against pros, but choose to play them anyway, are people going to get bent out of shape if I happen to place high in my CC-Am tour? It would be sad..and also hilarious to see, if someone should accuse Xbox master clubs players to have some "unfair advantage"  What a paradox means  My fear is exactly the opposite. If pro clubs should be allowed to play the pro tour, all together WITH master clubs, then the Xbox/master clubs players don't would be really really penalized, after all? It would not be worst for all you Xbox players? Really worst, I mean? |
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 16, 2019 17:19:06 GMT -5
So tecnically, if TGCTours went pro clubs, we could still use Master clubs. Seems the solution is already at hand. Just need a "No complaining/whining policy" for those that choose to compete with Master clubs. This is assuming the site went the pro club route. But good to know it can be done if admin allows it. ☺ If the site went Pro Clubs forced, then players using Master Clubs would be pulled from the site's leaderboard the same way Pro Club users are pulled today on Web, Euro and PGA. If the site went Pro Clubs allowed and recommended, technically that's what we did in season 4 (except in WT) and throughout CC in season 5. I just don't think it would be enjoyed very much based on how the CC season went. |
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 16, 2019 17:22:40 GMT -5
So if the tours go pro, but still allow the choicee to use the 'disadvanraged' master clubs, will pro club users think the masters players are not playing fair, even with the so called disadvantage? No. That's not what happened on CC at all. |
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Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Aug 16, 2019 22:19:17 GMT -5
So if the tours go pro, but still allow the choicee to use the 'disadvanraged' master clubs, will pro club users think the masters players are not playing fair, even with the so called disadvantage? No. That's not what happened on CC at all. I was refrring to a " pro clubs recommended, but masters are allowed" type rule.. ...and BTW I had fun in CC season 5 playing with the high difficulty for the record...as I'm sure many did with both sets.. |
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 16, 2019 22:31:49 GMT -5
I was refrring to a " pro clubs recommended, but masters are allowed" type rule.. ...and BTW I had fun in CC season 5 playing with the high difficulty for the record...as I'm sure many did with both sets.. I meant that no one accused any Masters Club players of taking the easy route. A wide subset of Master Club players, however, did argue for splitting the standings. Hard to argue against that point; eventually the rule was changed and it benefited CC. Once that was done, players were able to play the club set they preferred without sacrificing competitiveness. Still, it's hard to compare Master Club users across platforms because they are significantly different. There's some case to be made that you were deserving of being placed higher than your current flight if you played Master Clubs on XBoxOne. |
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Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Aug 16, 2019 22:44:05 GMT -5
So if the tours go pro, but still allow the choicee to use the 'disadvanraged' master clubs, will pro club users think the masters players are not playing fair, even with the so called disadvantage? I mean, if I, on XB, knowing it is harder to compete with masters against pros, but choose to play them anyway, are people going to get bent out of shape if I happen to place high in my CC-Am tour? It would be sad..and also hilarious to see, if someone should accuse Xbox master clubs players to have some "unfair advantage" What a paradox means My fear is exactly the opposite. If pro clubs should be allowed to play the pro tour, all together WITH master clubs, then the Xbox/master clubs players don't would be really really penalized, after all? It would not be worst for all you Xbox players? Really worst, I mean? But the choice would be the player's...XB is what it is, those that play masters anyway know that, have accepted it, and are likely having fun doing so regardless. Those that aren't have likely already moved on to society or other.. I'm not in the Pro Tours, but I think having a medium difficulty for the BEST players in those ranks would be simply ridiculous...unless we want to see -70's..all in the name of even and level..but will it be? (rhetoric) I'm sure the admins will do whatever they feel is in the best interest of the tours, afterall, 80% are already using their preferred clubs, so is there really a reason to change ? Regardless of what happens, we'll all still have a place to play... |
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International Record: 7-0-0
