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Post by cephyn on Aug 9, 2019 9:47:48 GMT -5
Either we can have fair, cross platform competition...or we can have unfair cross platform competition but you get to play master clubs. Those are the options, and it seems the community is nearly evenly split on it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 9:49:31 GMT -5
For me it is all about fair competition.
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Post by gdog on Aug 9, 2019 9:55:05 GMT -5
Either we can have fair, cross platform competition...or we can have unfair cross platform competition but you get to play master clubs. Those are the options, and it seems the community is nearly evenly split on it. Even if you force pro it's never going to be 100% fair. It'll just be slightly fairer with a much smaller community. |
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Post by cephyn on Aug 9, 2019 9:58:51 GMT -5
Either we can have fair, cross platform competition...or we can have unfair cross platform competition but you get to play master clubs. Those are the options, and it seems the community is nearly evenly split on it. Even if you force pro it's never going to be 100% fair. It'll just be slightly fairer with a much smaller community. From my understanding, the data shows its pretty much even on pro clubs. if there's other data out there i'd love to see it. and yes, forcing pro clubs would cause lots of people to quit. but how many have we lost due to the masters clubs problems on xbox? |
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Post by CuseHokie on Aug 9, 2019 10:15:47 GMT -5
Either we can have fair, cross platform competition...or we can have unfair cross platform competition but you get to play master clubs. Those are the options, and it seems the community is nearly evenly split on it. Even if you force pro it's never going to be 100% fair. It'll just be slightly fairer with a much smaller community. Just curious, how are you able to judge it only being slightly? Have you done a broad sample with a large quantity of players over several weeks? What does the tour have to lose in trying this in the Fall? Maybe run something in parallel in the specials society? If it is a complete disaster, we can put it to bed. If it works, maybe it's a consideration? |
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Post by GW_Hope on Aug 9, 2019 10:18:30 GMT -5
At this point everything said is speculation. Pro club only may not work or it may be the best thing that could happen? Until it’s tried it’s just stubborn opinion. I’ve said it a few times now. How about an post season Pro Club exhibition series. Everybody on same society and have some fun. Then make a decision based on actual playing.
I voted for Pro clubs but I’m not sold on it either.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 9, 2019 11:07:43 GMT -5
This discussion has been a bit discouraging for me the past few days. Just kind of sucks being told that wanting to play master clubs is selfish, and not wanting to force everyone to use pro clubs means I'm not valuing fairness, and therefor I'm putting how I want to play the game ahead of being fair to everyone - I just don't see it like that, and think it's a big leap to say that those of us who would like to play with master clubs don't care about fair play. Fair doesn't mean equal, and while Pro clubs might lessen the tempo performance gap across platforms (may...), it's still not going to make everything equal. I mean...I don't know, TGCT can do what it pleases, I'm just one guy, but going pro only would pretty much kill the game for me - but maybe that time has come, anyway.
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Post by cephyn on Aug 9, 2019 11:09:28 GMT -5
If fair doesn't mean equal, then what does it mean to you? Truly don't understand your position on this.
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Post by mde8965 on Aug 9, 2019 11:45:31 GMT -5
If fair doesn't mean equal, then what does it mean to you? Truly don't understand your position on this. I am not speaking for him. But I totally get where he is coming from. For me his statement meant that even though everybody would be playing with the same clubs (even) it would basically water down the talent pool (not fair). Andit would force so many people to play this game in a way that is not fun for them. (Again not fair). For instance let’s just say for a minute that 50 guys who are ranked in the top 100 are better than everybody else not because they’re cheating right or anything else. Again let’s just assume no cheating or flicking or other exploits for a minute. With everybody playing pro clubs there is no deviation everybody hits a straight shot pretty much and everybody lands the ball in nearly exactly the same place on every shot. Or at least pretty much exactly where they were aiming. So now all of a sudden folks that might have been CCB or CCA or web range are shooting the same scores as the people in PGA. And We would have massive crowding at the top of not only the pro but all of the leaderboard‘s. The overriding factor to how good you were at this game would only come down to putting. Or maybe chipping if you were playing for chips. Not only is that a disincentive for the people who are really good at this game but it’s also a disincentive for the people who are still learning the game somewhat. TGC1 had somewhat of the same problem except for very fast greens and fairways meant that you had to be a really good strategically to get your ball to roll out somewhere near the hole so you could make a putt. Or to aim for the fringe and chip in. Very fast greens in TGC 19 are nowhere near as hard so the only other way to vary the scores would be to have 25 mile an hour winds in every round and it would come down to who had the best system to compensate for it. If we knew for a fact that we would never have a new version of this game and we had to play with this version for the end of time then I would probably wish we would have two different tours one for pro clubs and one for masters. But since there is no doubt going to be another version of this game within 6 to 9 months we should just leave it the way it is for now. Maybe that’s way off base to some of you. It’s just the way I feel. And I guess my opinion is just that, mine. But being forced to play with pro clubs would probably be the end of TGC for me too. |
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Post by cephyn on Aug 9, 2019 12:08:39 GMT -5
Ah, its not fair to you just because you can't play the master clubs. I'm not talking about what's fair to you - the bugged implementation of the clubs isn't fair to all of us.
I'm talking about fair competition across platforms. Clearly with so many people saying they'd quit if forced to use pro clubs, there's no way the site will do it. But how many xbox players have already quit because the game isn't fair to them?
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Post by paulus on Aug 9, 2019 12:17:36 GMT -5
...being told that wanting to play master clubs is selfish, and not wanting to force everyone to use pro clubs means I'm not valuing fairness, and therefor I'm putting how I want to play the game ahead of being fair to everyone... The few people that have posted those opinions are idiots - I just discount them. Both sides have completely valid cases imho - and the arguments are currently equally balanced to my mind. Reflected wholly in the closeness of the vote. It would be good to know how many people would leave the Tours if Pro clubs were enforced in an attempt to balance the game across platforms - a mass exit obviously not desirable. But I'd balance that with the fact we've seen people object to big changes before and the end of the Tours predicted... never really materialises... |
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Post by mde8965 on Aug 9, 2019 12:21:57 GMT -5
Ah, its not fair to you just because you can't play the master clubs. I'm not talking about what's fair to you - the bugged implementation of the clubs isn't fair to all of us. I'm talking about fair competition across platforms. Clearly with so many people saying they'd quit if forced to use pro clubs, there's no way the site will do it. But how many xbox players have already quit because the game isn't fair to them? Nobody said things are fair for XBox’ers with master clubs. The point is that since there is a new game likely inside of a year, it would break things more (hurt more people) to force pro clubs until a new game comes out then it would to either leave things as is or create separate Pro and Masters flights throughout. And since option 2 is not practical administratively then option 1 is likely. Hey, I’ve said elsewhere in these forums that if I were on XBox I’d be totally POd and that I totally respect the folks that have stuck it out. I would not have and would have bought a used PS4. I spend that much time and energy with this game the money outlay would be totally worth it not an option for everyone I know. |
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Post by cephyn on Aug 9, 2019 12:28:19 GMT -5
You keep saying a new game is coming inside a year, yet we have no indication of that whatsoever.
The most likely outcome is TGCTours does nothing, because all changes are too controversial.
Bottom line is HB screwed us all over by screwing up the master clubs across platforms. But since they don't care about cross platform play, they have zero incentive to do anything about it. It remains TGCTours problem to decide whether catering to master club players is more important than fair cross-platform play or not.
I really hope this poll has been eye opening to the master clubs users, and the top tour players. The experience is very different for the playerbase here as whole.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 9, 2019 12:36:52 GMT -5
I really hope this poll has been eye opening to the master clubs users, and the top tour players. Since I'm apparently too dumb to grasp what is so obvious, enlighten me, what should we have learned? What I see is a vast majority of Web, Euro, and PGA players, along with Masters Clubset users (clearly some overlap between those groups, but still 357 respondents identifying themselves as Masters club users who are not on a Pro tour), saying they don't want to be forced to play with Pro clubs, so what am I missing here? |
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Post by mde8965 on Aug 9, 2019 12:41:49 GMT -5
You keep saying a new game is coming inside a year, yet we have no indication of that whatsoever. The most likely outcome is TGCTours does nothing, because all changes are too controversial. Bottom line is HB screwed us all over by screwing up the master clubs across platforms. But since they don't care about cross platform play, they have zero incentive to do anything about it. It remains TGCTours problem to decide whether catering to master club players is more important than fair cross-platform play or not. I really hope this poll has been eye opening to the master clubs users, and the top tour players. The experience is very different for the playerbase here as whole. No issues or disagreements with the first half of that post. You said this “I really hope this poll has been eye opening to the master clubs users, and the top tour players. The experience is very different for the playerbase here as whole” Iwould argue that the experience of the top tour players is only very different for XBox folks and to a smaller degree PC players. Other PS4 players and PC players that play with a controller instead of mouse have no different experience except they might not like or can’t handle master clubs. Most of the top players didn’t start there. They went through the CC flights, web and Euro. I did. And since the beginning of TGC2 when there were different difficulty levels aka club sets I have used the hardest one. that said I came up into the pro ranks in TGC1 and again in TGC2. So I really did not have the same people on my leaderboards using other difficulty levels for long. I was in WT at the end of season 4. And PGA all year this year. So I have no experience with the multi difficulty level competition. And the revised promotion/demotion system. At the end of the day my opinion is mine and yours is yours. They are both valid. I just dislike the premise that master clubs players are selfish because they don’t want to play with pro clubs. But pro club players aren’t selfish at all because they want to force pro clubs for everyone. |
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International Record: 7-0-0
