|
|
Post by AFCTUJacko on Aug 9, 2019 12:55:12 GMT -5
Why are we giving any weight to the views of Pro Club players who want to make Masters Club players to play the same dumbed down way they do?
I wouldn't barge into the CC threads and demand they use the Masters, would I?
The only reason i would ever be considering that change is if the Masters Club players wanted it. And they clearly do not.
|
|
|
|
Post by cephyn on Aug 9, 2019 12:57:01 GMT -5
I really hope this poll has been eye opening to the master clubs users, and the top tour players. Since I'm apparently too dumb to grasp what is so obvious, enlighten me, what should we have learned? What I see is a vast majority of Web, Euro, and PGA players, along with Masters Clubset users (clearly some overlap between those groups, but still 357 respondents identifying themselves as Masters club users who are not on a Pro tour), saying they don't want to be forced to play with Pro clubs, so what am I missing here? 90% of pro tour players are playing their preferred clubs. But only 66% are opposed to pro clubs being forced. That's interesting. 85% of masters clubs users are playing their preferred clubs. But only 63% are opposed to pro clubs being forced. That's also interesting. Those gaps should be eye opening. For those that use masters (probably exclusively) - there's some bleed of those who think they should continue to be allowed to use them. There are fewer masters clubs users on the CC Tours than pro club users (47-51), but when asked if pro clubs should be forced, CC players are in favor 55-44. Clearly some defections here from the masters clubs side. Also a majority of CC players want pro clubs forced, and they outnumber pro tour players 5 to 2. So if it's just majorities you're worried about.....there's something to think about. HB screwed over masters clubs, and screwed over TGCT in the process. Some people want to use masters clubs no matter what, all other factors be damned. Others want a level cross-platform playing field and that's the priority. Neither are wrong, in a sense - but the even split is the problem. |
|
|
|
Post by mde8965 on Aug 9, 2019 12:59:10 GMT -5
Why are we giving any weight to the views of Pro Club players who want to make Masters Club players to play the same dumbed down way they do?
I wouldn't barge into the CC threads and demand they use the Masters, would I?
The only reason i would ever be considering that change is if the Masters Club players wanted it. And they clearly do not.
If it weren’t for the problems with the Xbox platform version of the game this would not really be on the table at all |
|
|
|
Post by CuseHokie on Aug 9, 2019 13:01:43 GMT -5
For some reason I'm envisioning a superbowl, where the starting QB of the favored team dies in a fatal accident on the way to the venue. The underdog goes on to win and brags about how great of a team they were that year... This is what we currently have with master clubs / flicking / cross-platform disadvantages.
I am on PS4 and certainly prefer using master clubs, but seeing the exploiting week in and week out is just tiresome at this point. I'm up for trying something different?
|
|
|
|
Post by mrohde4 on Aug 9, 2019 13:03:05 GMT -5
This discussion has been a bit discouraging for me the past few days. Just kind of sucks being told that wanting to play master clubs is selfish, and not wanting to force everyone to use pro clubs means I'm not valuing fairness, and therefor I'm putting how I want to play the game ahead of being fair to everyone - I just don't see it like that, and think it's a big leap to say that those of us who would like to play with master clubs don't care about fair play. Fair doesn't mean equal, and while Pro clubs might lessen the tempo performance gap across platforms (may...), it's still not going to make everything equal. I mean...I don't know, TGCT can do what it pleases, I'm just one guy, but going pro only would pretty much kill the game for me - but maybe that time has come, anyway. Pro clubs on the highest tours is wrong in so many ways, but it's a necessary evil to remedy the current flaws. I'm against it as well, but what are the alternative options at this point? Do you actually believe the status quo is a system that accurately/fairly determines the best players in the world over an entire season? If not, what would be your ideal solution to the perceived console disparity and/or the shortswing-flick-exploit-API-dq problem? |
|
|
|
Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Aug 9, 2019 13:05:51 GMT -5
Can the swing data comparison that was done just after the HB swing patch PLEASE be re-run now that we have a full season in? I'd say use the last 2 events leaderboards and look at the numbers. My guess is that the difference between PS4 and XB compared to what it was first run may actually be closer than people think.
Personally I don't think XB is broken. I have just gotten better with the highest difficulty.
Do pro club users think it is unfair that I play masters on CC even with my 'disadvantage'?
I feel the tours are a fair challenge for this XB master club user...
|
|
|
|
Post by Celtic Wolf on Aug 9, 2019 13:10:57 GMT -5
Why are we giving any weight to the views of Pro Club players who want to make Masters Club players to play the same dumbed down way they do?
I wouldn't barge into the CC threads and demand they use the Masters, would I?
The only reason i would ever be considering that change is if the Masters Club players wanted it. And they clearly do not.
I agree with your thoughts of players having a say on what happens outwith their own tour. I've been a CC player for my year and 8 months here and don't air any of my thoughts about the Pro, Beginner or True Sim Tours as it doesn't affect me. It may change in the future but as it stands all my views will be about CC. |
|
|
|
Post by AFCTUJacko on Aug 9, 2019 13:11:13 GMT -5
Why are we giving any weight to the views of Pro Club players who want to make Masters Club players to play the same dumbed down way they do?
I wouldn't barge into the CC threads and demand they use the Masters, would I?
The only reason i would ever be considering that change is if the Masters Club players wanted it. And they clearly do not.
If it weren’t for the problems with the Xbox platform version of the game this would not really be on the table at all Yet weirdly the XB players don't seem to be the ones driving hardest at it.
It seems to be CC people who can already play with the pro clubs, and people closer to the top who have an issue with flicking and want to ruin everyones fun just to get rid of 2 or 3 troublesome players. FWIW, i am not happy with people being DQed repeatedly and not being banned, but it's only a problem for people who have an inkling they might be able to win a PGA event - which is a tiny percentage of the player base
Meanwhile the 3 highest ranked PC players (ie the members of the "elite" at an actual disadvantage to all the PS4 players according to the data) are quite happy with how things are. Bizarre  |
|
|
|
Post by mde8965 on Aug 9, 2019 13:24:07 GMT -5
If it weren’t for the problems with the Xbox platform version of the game this would not really be on the table at all Yet weirdly the XB players don't seem to be the ones driving hardest at it.
It seems to be people who can already play with the pro clubs, and people closer to the top who have an issue with flicking and want to ruin everyones fun just to get rid of 2 or 3 troublesome players. FWIW, i am not happy with people being DQed repeatedly and not being banned, but it's only a problem for people who have an inkling they might be able to win a PGA event - which is a tiny percentage of the player base
Meanwhile the 3 highest ranked PC players (ie the members of the "elite" at an actual disadvantage to the PS4 players) are quite happy with how things are. Bizarre Agreed. And to add to what you said about this. The whole “flickers should be shot” mentality. I’ve never understood that. Who in this game has a swing that goes all the way to the top on every drive and iron shot every single time. Almost nobody unless you push forward and hold that stick at the top. Do I have swings less than 100%, yup. Do I have swings that go all the way up, sure do. Did I develop my crap swing (not a flick as I nearly always hit the top of the plastic with the stick) to exploit TGC19. Of course not. Swung exactly the same way in TGC2. I would hate a system that says you get APId if you have more than 5 less than full swings per round. If so half the field from top to bottom would be DQ. The ones that do the flick and get APId regularly. Yes it’s an issue. Maybe allow 3 per season. After that it’s a mandatory two week ban. After 5, 7 or 10 it’s a perma-ban. I know I have not been APId at all during this season. I was APId in one of the preseason events experimenting with a PS4 controller made for kids (because it was cheap). I’m rambling as usual. I say let the flickers flick. Let them swing 5 to 1 or whatever they do to avoid the API. As long as they are not triggering the API. Anyone can develop such a swing if they choose. Just like anyone can use the right stick, the left stick. Use just their thumb or use their thumb and fore finger or their tongue. Flame way flicker haters. Ha ha |
|
|
|
Post by mrohde4 on Aug 9, 2019 13:28:04 GMT -5
If it weren’t for the problems with the Xbox platform version of the game this would not really be on the table at all Yet weirdly the XB players don't seem to be the ones driving hardest at it.
It seems to be CC people who can already play with the pro clubs, and people closer to the top who have an issue with flicking and want to ruin everyones fun just to get rid of 2 or 3 troublesome players. FWIW, i am not happy with people being DQed repeatedly and not being banned, but it's only a problem for people who have an inkling they might be able to win a PGA event - which is a tiny percentage of the player base
Meanwhile the 3 highest ranked PC players (ie the members of the "elite" at an actual disadvantage to all the PS4 players according to the data) are quite happy with how things are. Bizarre “2 or 3 troublesome players” 😂😂😂😂😂 |
|
|
|
Post by CuseHokie on Aug 9, 2019 13:29:14 GMT -5
Yet weirdly the XB players don't seem to be the ones driving hardest at it.
It seems to be people who can already play with the pro clubs, and people closer to the top who have an issue with flicking and want to ruin everyones fun just to get rid of 2 or 3 troublesome players. FWIW, i am not happy with people being DQed repeatedly and not being banned, but it's only a problem for people who have an inkling they might be able to win a PGA event - which is a tiny percentage of the player base
Meanwhile the 3 highest ranked PC players (ie the members of the "elite" at an actual disadvantage to the PS4 players) are quite happy with how things are. Bizarre Agreed. And to add to what you said about this. The whole “flickers should be shot” mentality. I’ve never understood that. Who in this game has a swing that goes all the way to the top on every drive and iron shot every single time. Almost nobody unless you push forward and hold that stick at the top. Do I have swings less than 100%, yup. Do I have swings that go all the way up, sure do. Did I develop my crap swing to exploit TGC19. Of course not. Swung exactly the same way in TGC2. I would hate a system that says you get APId if you have more than 5 less than full swings per round. If so half the field from top to bottom would be DQ. The ones that do the flick and get APId regularly. Yes it’s an issue. Maybe allow 3 per season. After that it’s a mandatory two week ban. After 5, 7 or 10 it’s a perma-ban. I know I have not been APId at all during this season. I was APId in one of the preseason events experimenting with a PS4 controller made for kids (because it was cheap). I’m rambling as usual. I say let the flickers flick. Let them swing 5 to 1 or whatever they do to avoid the API. As long as they are not triggering the API. Anyone can develop such a swing if they choose. Just like anyone can use the right stick, the left stick. Use just their thumb or use their thumb and fore finger or their tongue. Flame way flicker haters. Ha ha Fadge - strike another one on your board. Hahaha. |
|
|
|
Post by mde8965 on Aug 9, 2019 13:36:19 GMT -5
Agreed. And to add to what you said about this. The whole “flickers should be shot” mentality. I’ve never understood that. Who in this game has a swing that goes all the way to the top on every drive and iron shot every single time. Almost nobody unless you push forward and hold that stick at the top. Do I have swings less than 100%, yup. Do I have swings that go all the way up, sure do. Did I develop my crap swing to exploit TGC19. Of course not. Swung exactly the same way in TGC2. I would hate a system that says you get APId if you have more than 5 less than full swings per round. If so half the field from top to bottom would be DQ. The ones that do the flick and get APId regularly. Yes it’s an issue. Maybe allow 3 per season. After that it’s a mandatory two week ban. After 5, 7 or 10 it’s a perma-ban. I know I have not been APId at all during this season. I was APId in one of the preseason events experimenting with a PS4 controller made for kids (because it was cheap). I’m rambling as usual. I say let the flickers flick. Let them swing 5 to 1 or whatever they do to avoid the API. As long as they are not triggering the API. Anyone can develop such a swing if they choose. Just like anyone can use the right stick, the left stick. Use just their thumb or use their thumb and fore finger or their tongue. Flame way flicker haters. Ha ha Fadge - strike another one on your board. Hahaha. Who you callin flicker? Ha ha. Seriously. One look at my swing and you would call it bad, crap, bizarre, laughable, not flicker. Feel free though I’ve been called lots worse. |
|
|
|
Post by mrohde4 on Aug 9, 2019 13:55:01 GMT -5
Yet weirdly the XB players don't seem to be the ones driving hardest at it.
It seems to be people who can already play with the pro clubs, and people closer to the top who have an issue with flicking and want to ruin everyones fun just to get rid of 2 or 3 troublesome players. FWIW, i am not happy with people being DQed repeatedly and not being banned, but it's only a problem for people who have an inkling they might be able to win a PGA event - which is a tiny percentage of the player base
Meanwhile the 3 highest ranked PC players (ie the members of the "elite" at an actual disadvantage to the PS4 players) are quite happy with how things are. Bizarre Agreed. And to add to what you said about this. The whole “flickers should be shot” mentality. I’ve never understood that. Who in this game has a swing that goes all the way to the top on every drive and iron shot every single time. Almost nobody unless you push forward and hold that stick at the top. Do I have swings less than 100%, yup. Do I have swings that go all the way up, sure do. Did I develop my crap swing (not a flick as I nearly always hit the top of the plastic with the stick) to exploit TGC19. Of course not. Swung exactly the same way in TGC2. I would hate a system that says you get APId if you have more than 5 less than full swings per round. If so half the field from top to bottom would be DQ. The ones that do the flick and get APId regularly. Yes it’s an issue. Maybe allow 3 per season. After that it’s a mandatory two week ban. After 5, 7 or 10 it’s a perma-ban. I know I have not been APId at all during this season. I was APId in one of the preseason events experimenting with a PS4 controller made for kids (because it was cheap). I’m rambling as usual. I say let the flickers flick. Let them swing 5 to 1 or whatever they do to avoid the API. As long as they are not triggering the API. Anyone can develop such a swing if they choose. Just like anyone can use the right stick, the left stick. Use just their thumb or use their thumb and fore finger or their tongue. Flame way flicker haters. Ha ha I'll take the bait. Myself personally - my swing line hits the top probably 999 out of 1000 times, and no I don't hold it there. And a laggy screen is the reason for the 1 out of 1000. The anti-flick movement has problems with the known frequency with which API pulls occur due to the flick/short swing. For many, it's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when." The known API pattern it produces (slight right) is so salient that it caused the admins to send out a warning. That should tell you something. Add the fact that nobody with a straight face can dispute the accuracy advantage, and you have distorted results. There is minimal to no accuracy penalty for an off-line swing. It's golf with bumpers. Plus, there are probably twenty items in everyone's household that one could use to reproduce the shortswing exploit. Yet let's celebrate them for their 'talent.' Could I short swing? Absolutely. Would it improve my standing? Probably. But the reason why I make a point to achieve full lines is out of respect to the API. Kind of like an honor thing. Weird, hey? Because I know if I short swing, it exponentially increases my chance at a DQ. Yet, this issue is so pronounced that many in the top 25 each week are known short swingers with previous API pull(s). That doesn't raise an eyebrow? Don't worry, we have the data. These are the "best of the best" yet their in-game accuracy dispersion is minimal to zero. After an API pull they just come back the next week. It's a different game than the majority. I encourage you and anyone reading this to watch videos (if they all haven't been removed) of some of the top short swingers on the PGA. Then ask yourself if that's the same game you play week in week out. Also, how do you know that "half the field" would get DQ'd every week if you have more than five short swings a round? Do you have video on everyone? |
|
|
|
Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 9, 2019 14:07:11 GMT -5
Since I'm apparently too dumb to grasp what is so obvious, enlighten me, what should we have learned? What I see is a vast majority of Web, Euro, and PGA players, along with Masters Clubset users (clearly some overlap between those groups, but still 357 respondents identifying themselves as Masters club users who are not on a Pro tour), saying they don't want to be forced to play with Pro clubs, so what am I missing here? A) 90% of pro tour players are playing their preferred clubs. But only 66% are opposed to pro clubs being forced. That's interesting. B) 85% of masters clubs users are playing their preferred clubs. But only 63% are opposed to pro clubs being forced. That's also interesting. Those gaps should be eye opening. For those that use masters (probably exclusively) - there's some bleed of those who think they should continue to be allowed to use them. C) There are fewer masters clubs users on the CC Tours than pro club users (47-51), but when asked if pro clubs should be forced, CC players are in favor 55-44. Clearly some defections here from the masters clubs side. D) Also a majority of CC players want pro clubs forced, and they outnumber pro tour players 5 to 2. So if it's just majorities you're worried about.....there's something to think about. A) Dude that's a group with 256 of 286 people saying they're playing the game the way that's the most enjoyable for them, and two thirds of them don't want to be forced to play at an easier difficulty! 256 of 286 pro tour players say they're playing with their preferred clubset, how is that not more telling?
B) So 26 people who use master clubs the most are not using their preferred clubset on tour because they're forced to use pro - what tour forces you to use pro clubs? Kind of honest question in case I've missed that somewhere, but it's the first I've heard of it...anyway, that's still 409 out of 643 that don't want to be forced to play pro clubs. Just because one is 85% and the other is 63% doesn't negate the fact that 63% is still nearly two thirds of people who don't want to be made to use pro clubs on tour.
C) Difference in Master vs Pro club users on CC is 24. Somehow 36 of CC players are forced to use Master clubs (new to me), and another 84 are forced to use Pro Clubs (again, how?), with another 21 just saying no, so I guess we can assume those folks want to play with Beginner clubs. That's a total of 120 CC players saying their either forced to us master clubs or forced to use pro clubs, neither of which makes any sense unless I'm completely overlooking something (entirely possible...). The difference in the "should we force pro clubs" question amongst CC'ers is 72 - or more directly the difference between CC'ers who use pro clubs the most and think everyone should have to is 26, and that's within a subset of people having 549 of 570 reasonable responses (i.e., removing the forced-master and forced-pro) saying they're using their preferred clubset on tour.
D) See "C" above. Also, the out-weighted input of CC'ers vs Pro Tour players means CC'ers are having a larger effect on the overall tally - why should those on CC be able to tell Pro Tour players how is best to play the game? I'm for letting anyone play with whatever clubset they want, couldn't care less about forcing Pro Tour players to use Master clubs, so if that helps then sure, have at it.
We can twist data and numbers all we want, this isn't a peer reviewed scientific study, there's some obvious flaws in the questions, options for answering, and discrepancies in responses that throw up huge red flags and provide significant limitations in making absolute conclusions - I think that's something we all need to keep in mind.
|
|
|
|
Post by mde8965 on Aug 9, 2019 14:20:38 GMT -5
mrohde4 - maybe I am naive. I never use ghosts or go out hunting for video feeds on players. The hunt for cheaters mentality would totally suck all the fun out of this game for me. But you are saying the short swing thing, when somebody means to do it” looks pretty much identical. That’s all news to me and you allude to controller mods to achieve such swing could be used. Again I never thought of that. I was of the idea that short swingers swings basically looked like a banana going from 5 o’clock to 1 o’clock and only spanning about the bottom 50% of the grid. And in order to do so they pulled back the stick when then flung it forward, just barely. Obviously I would agree that using a devise to create a swing is totally wrong. The rest of it I’m not sure. After all in TGC1 mouse players basically had to move their hand an inch or less to swing (almost like a twitch) and nobody called them cheaters. I use my right thumb only on the right stick. Hold the controller about 20 degrees left to compensate for the natural arch of your thumb. And pull back to the plastic and push forward to the plastic but let go as soon as forward contact is made. Otherwise, and due to a slight tremor which is amplified when I’m nervous, holding the stick at the front plastic results in a sort of T shaped swing which definitely impacts ball flight. But the fact I let go sometime results in the line only going up 80%, other times 90 or 100. Occasionally I get a 60 percent that actually has a tail coming back from top down. I remember in TGC1 I would pull back and slam the stick forward as hard as possible to overcome the tremor. Maybe that’s why it took me so long to get out of CC.
|
|
International Record: 7-0-0