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Post by Doyley on Feb 18, 2015 21:18:33 GMT -5
In the end, my point is you could make it tougher so the top people won't shoot -50 and instead shoot -30, but those that were shooting -30 would go down to -15 or -10 and so on and so forth. The ONLY way to even the field is through handicaps and that goes against the very fabric of having pro tours. So -40, -50, -60, it doesn't matter to me cause in the end it is all relative. I realize this - and would welcome it. If it's all relative, it might as well be as close to realistic as possible. |
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Post by Matt10 on Feb 18, 2015 21:32:04 GMT -5
In the end, my point is you could make it tougher so the top people won't shoot -50 and instead shoot -30, but those that were shooting -30 would go down to -15 or -10 and so on and so forth. The ONLY way to even the field is through handicaps and that goes against the very fabric of having pro tours. So -40, -50, -60, it doesn't matter to me cause in the end it is all relative. I realize this - and would welcome it. If it's all relative, it might as well be as close to realistic as possible. Same here. I played on clambaker's for TW08 PC, and they used a handicap system. They took the average of player's scores, and it would change per week based on their results. Again though, the premise of the thread was an "Easy" way to raise scores - and my "easy" answer was take one aide off. It will raise it just slightly, who knows, maybe even a bit. I'm over it though, I respect the staff for appeasing the masses - as a sim standard type of guy, this would not be an easy thing for me to do. I just think you buy a game that mimics real life, make it play as close to real life as you can. Guys put in 50+ hours on courses, only to have it be dominated with ease. This is why they have to put undulated fairways and elevated greens. When in fact a blind approach shot could present more of a challenge and uncertainty. /dead horse  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 21:36:36 GMT -5
If we use handicaps for tgctours, count me out.
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Post by Doyley on Feb 18, 2015 21:37:54 GMT -5
If we use handicaps for tgctours, count me out. Me too - don't worry, won't happen. We do have handicap events in our plans down the road for Country Clubs and 1-off events. But not for the main tours. |
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js
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Post by js on Feb 18, 2015 22:18:15 GMT -5
If we use handicaps for tgctours, count me out. Me too - don't worry, won't happen. We do have handicap events in our plans down the road for Country Clubs and 1-off events. But not for the main tours.
Me three. There's just too many sandbaggers out there.
I would also add that the wind issue is more about "round fairness" than anything else. Can wind be used to lower scores, sure. But if it came down to needing a 20+mph wind to keep scores down on a great course, count me out as well. Just like real golf, the high winds actually wear on you.
With that said, is the below even possible?
•What if designers published the same course 4 times, but with each having a different pin location? If you (Doyley) could set up a tournament in this manner, I think it would not only add to the realism of tourney golf, but require players to use different course management strategy each round. The end result might be lower scores.
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 18, 2015 22:47:05 GMT -5
Brighttail - getting an even field is not the objective of this discussion... Sure making the game more difficult would increase the gap. So what? That is more fair than anything else. But let's not torture the guys who want a casual competition in the Champions tour, so only make it more difficult for the top tiers.
I think we will see more and more players hit the "roof" in terms of skill over the coming couple months. The balance right now is that it is very easy (for the top 5%) to make birdies, but holing out approach shots are completely random. So there is very litte to separate people at the top of the leaderboard, and score variance is also trending lower. End result of this - miss a 20foot put on 2d hole of a 4 round event and you are pretty much our contention... Maybe not what we want?
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Post by Doyley on Feb 18, 2015 22:48:57 GMT -5
•What if designers published the same course 4 times, but with each having a different pin location? If you (Doyley) could set up a tournament in this manner, I think it would not only add to the realism of tourney golf, but require players to use different course management strategy each round. The end result might be lower scores.
We are doing that for week at the Joburg Open (4 sets of pins) and have done it in the past on the European Tour (2 sets of pins there). We can't do it every week because it's taxing on our Tournament Marshals that have to verify over two events (R1//R2 and R3/R4) - effectively doubling their work. Hopefully multiple pins are added at some point so that we don't have to do the work around events. |
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js
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Post by js on Feb 18, 2015 22:54:23 GMT -5
•What if designers published the same course 4 times, but with each having a different pin location? If you (Doyley) could set up a tournament in this manner, I think it would not only add to the realism of tourney golf, but require players to use different course management strategy each round. The end result might be lower scores.
We are doing that for week at the Joburg Open (4 sets of pins) and have done it in the past on the European Tour (2 sets of pins there). We can't do it every week because it's taxing on our Tournament Marshals that have to verify over two events (R1//R2 and R3/R4) - effectively doubling their work. Hopefully multiple pins are added at some point so that we don't have to do the work around events. I can imagine the work this puts on the marshals. I'm curious regarding past events that did use this method, did it seem to have any effect on the scores? |
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Post by Doyley on Feb 18, 2015 23:24:26 GMT -5
I can imagine the work this puts on the marshals. I'm curious regarding past events that did use this method, did it seem to have any effect on the scores? It did for this one but only because the 2nd version used for R3 and R4 was a much different setup - different pins, faster greens, tees moved back - wasn't a simple pin relocation. In the future we'll be more likely to use setups that just change pins/tees - and not changes to course features (rough) or green speeds. |
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Post by Brighttail on Feb 18, 2015 23:59:07 GMT -5
I agree, i can't wait to see what Joburg has to offer and see how the scores differ. It really requires some practice and I'm loving it.
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Post by mnguy12000 on Feb 19, 2015 9:28:11 GMT -5
I like the idea of different pins. I think we can all agree the wind is what hurts the tours too. Since it is global, people who play a certain times usually have better winds then others who play later. I think that is completely unfair.
So someone who plays in the morning everyday may have low winds for every round, yet someone who plays in the afternoon/evening has high every time. Heck I dont really even play after work very often because I am sick of have high winds every time. Only casual rounds will I play now, after the last two tourneys where I had no choice but to play in the evening really put a damper on my enthusiasm when every round was 13-19 mph.
Before for I thought it was people waiting out the wind, which I think still happens, but I also think it global issue as well.
I think for now rolling out Multi-pins would help. Then hopefully HB gets a better wind model for tourneys/tour.
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Post by Oblong on Feb 19, 2015 20:01:47 GMT -5
Brighttail - getting an even field is not the objective of this discussion... Sure making the game more difficult would increase the gap. So what? That is more fair than anything else. But let's not torture the guys who want a casual competition in the Champions tour, so only make it more difficult for the top tiers. I think we will see more and more players hit the "roof" in terms of skill over the coming couple months. The balance right now is that it is very easy (for the top 5%) to make birdies, but holing out approach shots are completely random. So there is very litte to separate people at the top of the leaderboard, and score variance is also trending lower. End result of this - miss a 20foot put on 2d hole of a 4 round event and you are pretty much our contention... Maybe not what we want? Gotta say this post really hits the nail on the head and exactly what I was thinking. Yes, scores are relative and this is a game so scores will end up lower than real life. But at its current difficulty it won't be long before there are 10 way ties at the top with stock (all birdies/eagle) topping out rounds. We have already this week had more sub 60 rounds in just 1 round than the entire history of professional golf. This is much more than a regular Joe hitting a 100mph fastball, this is hitting a grand slam every at-bat. It's over the top and can be toned down without subjecting the lesser skilled players to frustration. We are not at the point yet where it is problematic. We see a good variety of winners so far and some top players are even missing cuts so there is still variety in scores. Equal and higher winds for all will certainly help extend the inevitable from happening soon too. The game could do better on reducing pinpoint accuracy. On a good day you may strike 5-10 perfect white line shots. But what about all the shots with 1 or 2 pixel jaggies? See much of any difference in your desired outcome? Nope. If a short iron 2 pixels off would push you 5 yards left or right, would it change how you played? Maybe like the pro's and not attack the pin on every hole but aim for the less risky part of the green and take your chances on a longer putt. A shot bordering the edge of the red may have you even missing a green which doesnt happen now. On longer irons that 1-2 pixel miss would be more pronounced and on the driver, the toughest club to hit, a border red hit would surely have you in the rough unlike now where you are still safe. It would promote better course management, give the top players longer birdie putts, but still allow the lower players to make par if they managed the course properly. Other thoughts are the dial-a-distance grid, which HB says they will not remove and uphill/dowhill lies not playing correctly which HB says is coming at some point. |
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 19, 2015 22:58:51 GMT -5
Good point on the rounds in the 50s and grand slam Oblong. That is exactly what it is.
I still think that another dimension (timing, tempo) needs to be added to the swing and would solve the issue here. Tie the timing to pushs and pulls. Very very sensitive and have to be dead on the millisecond for a dead straight shot, but only produces a couple % deviation if moderately off and you have to be really off to produce a really bad result. Better than just reducing the cone, in my opinion.
Then putting is too easy, but that is another story.
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Post by Oblong on Feb 19, 2015 23:16:52 GMT -5
That would work also mcbogga, tempo was really good on Links2003 for consoles. It would fix the putting problem also. I watched a guy play the other day and he was actually pausing the putting stroke and slowly adjusting the length of its backswing before hitting. Looked absolutely ridiculous but further shows how tempo is almost entirely ignored in the game.
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Post by nevadaballin on Feb 19, 2015 23:52:23 GMT -5
If we use handicaps for tgctours, count me out. Me too - don't worry, won't happen. We do have handicap events in our plans down the road for Country Clubs and 1-off events. But not for the main tours. Please, no HC's ever on the main events (or ever period imo lol). This is supposed to be a "pro tour" league. Pros don't use handicaps. We shouldn't either. Also, I don't think the point about raising scores is the same as leveling the playing field. Those are two completely different animals. For people who want a "level playing field", practice more, play better and get yourself to a higher level. Part of the fun of a great journey is enabling yourself to rise above where you already are. I've been struggling since the tour started after the last update came out. But I'm not calling for things to become easier (quite the opposite actually lol). I'm working on my game, trying to figure out where my disconnect is since that update (may have found it too as of yesterday). A desire to make myself better, not bring everyone else down to me ... is what drives me to practice and try different things to improve. Like most, free time is a premium. I have a job, family, etc like everyone else but I mange to carve out some time each day for this. |
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