Discussion: Flight Adjusted by Club Set?

[whiz03]

Pro and Master clubs need to be separated, it's like some teeing of on the front tees and some teeing off on the back tees, the front tees have an advantage.

Also someone using pro clubs is going to advance quicker then someone using Master clubs. the 2 should be separated and not playing together period.

[Deleted]

I can’t believe this topic has never been discussed before

[Deleted]

The more I think about this the more I think it's the only sensible way forward. It wouldn't have been in TGC2, because there was actually a good balance between the clubsets, but now they function as legitimate difficulty levels (as HB openly states in the game). The difference between pro and master clubsets is probably about the same as as a middling PGA player vs a scripter, and I'd assume the main principle behind these tours is, as someone mentioned above, to create an even playing field.

I'm pretty sure no other competitive video game setup would allow different difficulty levels to compete against each other. Disputing this, in my personal view, is just evidence of a lingering TGC2 mindset, back when there actually wasn't a discernible advantage to using player clubs vs tours (in fact you simply couldn't compete at the top level using player clubs in TGC2, it's a whole different ball game with TGC19).

I should add that I have no personal stake in this since I'll only ever be involved in master only tours, but looking at the CC tables since the beginning of the season, it's abundantly clear that master club players are not competing on a fair playing field.


Edit: One further suggestion, given the numbers, might be to have 3 CC master level tours with 5 using pro clubs, as I think in the CC right now it's about a 70/30 split in favour of pro club users?


Edit 2: I tried a round on this week's PGA course (Scottsdale) using pro clubs, didn't have a single bad downswing tempo which has never happened for me with master clubs. This was the final result (lipped out on 18th which was annoying lol):

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2019 0:47:07 GMT -5 whiz03 said:

Pro and Master clubs need to be separated, it's like some teeing of on the front tees and some teeing off on the back tees, the front tees have an advantage.

Also someone using pro clubs is going to advance quicker then someone using Master clubs. the 2 should be separated and not playing together period.

im confused, your first paragraphs suggests that masters have an advantage due to extra length but your second paragraph suggests pro will move up faster?

Are you saying masters will dominate CC pro level or prop will?

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2019 1:20:16 GMT -5 @roytgc said:

Jan 27, 2019 0:47:07 GMT -5 whiz03 said:

Pro and Master clubs need to be separated, it's like some teeing of on the front tees and some teeing off on the back tees, the front tees have an advantage.

Also someone using pro clubs is going to advance quicker then someone using Master clubs. the 2 should be separated and not playing together period.

im confused, your first paragraphs suggests that masters have an advantage due to extra length but your second paragraph suggests pro will move up faster?

Are you saying masters will dominate CC pro level or prop will?

He was only using the tees as a simile for an uneven playing field - he's saying different tees wouldn't be an even playing field, and neither are different clubsets which officially represent difficulty levels. I don't think anybody seriously entertains the idea that, ceteris paribus, master clubs have a scoring advantage because of the extra distance (they did in TGC2 though).

[XJ_Jagman]

Jan 27, 2019 1:12:31 GMT -5 @roytgc said:

I can’t believe this topic has never been discussed before

If it has been discussed previously, why are we still in the same position?

[SkyBlueBen]

Personally don't see a problem in this. I play pro clubs because I've tried Masters and I'm just too doddery to use Masters. So I play what I'm comfortable with as I get more enjoyment that way but on a competitive level I get no pleasure from shooting better than someone using Masters clubs because I know it's not a level playing field. There are 3 distinct levels of Clubs so why not Leagues that cater for the Elite (PGA/Euro/Web), Masters, Pro and Beginners. Seems logical.

[Deleted]

Separate tours for medium and hard difficulty levels is the most logical step, mixing them together and forcing people to play a difficulty they don't like just to progress is flawed and the whole thing is so unbalanced lower down the flights. I don't play on the main tours just giving an outsiders perspective. 

[Giraffe72]

It's a tricky one this and to be fair the admins are a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place.  I totally get that these tours need to be all inclusive as much as possible, I think the right decision was made regarding Beginners clubs but Masters clubs are so frustrating that I can understand why a lot of people don't want to use them. So then if you're essentially forcing people to use clubs that they simply don't enjoy playing with the end result will only be people leaving these tours, and none of us want to see that.

I'm one of the people Patrick is talking about. I've been PGA or equivalent for more than 2 years previously to this game, I played Q-School with Masters because I wanted to try and at least make a Pro tour, I'm on Xbox which we all know is a bit of a handicap at the moment, and I've ended up in CC-C.  Despite the frustrations I actually really enjoy the game but now I'm in a position where I'm playing Masters clubs against others playing Pro and I do feel that I'm at a bit of a disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, this is MY choice. I am fairly confident that if I dropped down to Pro I would start seeing some better results and maybe start climbing the ladder again, but I don't do that because I enjoy the challenge of the game as I play it.  Not dissimilar to those nutters who play their tour rounds TST style I suppose!

I may make that choice to drop down at some point as I know some others have.  I can totally see the point of view of those who feel they aren't playing on a level playing field, mainly because they're correct. HB putting skill levels in has really given TGCT a headache they didn't need!  For what it's worth I like the look of the structure in the OP, but promotion from the highest Pro Tour should never be mandatory.  I actually think it's a shame they made promotion from CC-A mandatory.  It's difficult but there's got to be way of making it fair while not turning people away.  But in the meantime, despite my perceived disadvantages, I'm still enjoying it.  Long live TGCT!

[Art Vandelay]

Jamie Giraffe72 you took the words away from me.  I too have only played Masters clubs, but never at the level that you achieved in your history.  TGC2 was my first time in the game and only reached CC-B level, with a couple of cups of coffee into CC-A.

Just in the last few weeks have I become comfortable enough with the mouse swing to score reasonably well.  Currently level 73 with a +17 handicap in the game, no world beater but having landed in CC-F after QS I am enjoying the game very much.  Now THAT is something I could not have said as recently as December.

This past week I played the best I ever had at -36, yet looks like a T23 finish.  But if you took the Pros out, I would have finished T5.

Is it equitable?  Is it fair?  Meh.  Honestly, I doubt I could score much lower than that with Pro clubs.  And losing the challenge would lead to loss of interest for me.

I see the merit in segregation by club set, but realize it would require so much more work behind the scenes.

Then what would be next?  Segregation by platform?  By input device?  By handedness or gender of your avatar?  I don't think we want to go down that road, would make the participation thinned like Jamie inferred (or at least I think).

[flo1860]

Jan 26, 2019 9:31:47 GMT -5 XJ_Jagman said:

I would recommend the following for next season. I would love to see it immediately, but realize it is not possible. Thoughts?

Something like that would be great. I think Pro and Master clubs need to be separated. Would be fair for all

[Celtic Wolf]

So for instance if I won Pro-A I would be promoted then forced to use Master clubs? Then if you drop down from Master D you have to use Pro clubs? That would either force players to play with a club set they don't want to, which could in turn make people leave the tour. I play this game for fun and I'm not too fussed about moving up or down the flights, but if I'm not enjoying it then I probably wouldn't play as much.

I've heard a lot of talk about Xbox players being at a disadvantage, would they be given special compensation to make it a level playing field?

[Art Vandelay]

Jan 27, 2019 16:39:28 GMT -5 Celtic Wolf said:

So for instance if I won Pro-A I would be promoted then forced to use Master clubs? Then if you drop down from Master D you have to use Pro clubs? That would either force players to play with a club set they don't want to, which could in turn make people leave the tour. I play this game for fun and I'm not too fussed about moving up or down the flights, but if I'm not enjoying it then I probably wouldn't play as much.

I've heard a lot of talk about Xbox players being at a disadvantage, would they be given special compensation to make it a level playing field?

The way I would interpret it is you reached Pro A and didn't want to switch to Masters then you have reached your summit.  If you play Masters and win an event at Masters A you would get promoted to Web.  Much more movement between the top seven tiers since they are all using the same club set.

Don't see platforms being given handicaps, that is stretching the "level playing field" argument way to thin.  Why not go as far as different compensation for PC players using a mouse vs ones who use a controller?

[Celtic Wolf]

Jan 27, 2019 16:58:31 GMT -5 Art Vandelay said:

Jan 27, 2019 16:39:28 GMT -5 Celtic Wolf said:

So for instance if I won Pro-A I would be promoted then forced to use Master clubs? Then if you drop down from Master D you have to use Pro clubs? That would either force players to play with a club set they don't want to, which could in turn make people leave the tour. I play this game for fun and I'm not too fussed about moving up or down the flights, but if I'm not enjoying it then I probably wouldn't play as much.

I've heard a lot of talk about Xbox players being at a disadvantage, would they be given special compensation to make it a level playing field?

The way I would interpret it is you reached Pro A and didn't want to switch to Masters then you have reached your summit.  If you play Masters and win an event at Masters A you would get promoted to Web.  Much more movement between the top seven tiers since they are all using the same club set.

Don't see platforms being given handicaps, that is stretching the "level playing field" argument way to thin.  Why not go as far as different compensation for PC players using a mouse vs ones who use a controller?

Would Pro-A just not get over-inflated with players unwilling to change? My bit about Xbox was a joke as I'm not too bothered about a level playing field. I like many others play the game for fun and keeping it enjoyable for players.

We all have different expectations from the tour, some play with a primary objective of moving up others just want to play and enjoy their rounds regardless of where they finish.

[XJ_Jagman]

Jan 27, 2019 18:23:03 GMT -5 cmattax said:

The plan that XJ_Jagman is proposing in no way excludes anyone and in no way forces anyone to play with a club set that is undesirable for them. His plan would simply force SOME people to play in a different (and more fairly competitive, IMO) league. I think it is a good plan and I hope it gains traction around the time that the season ends.

FYI I have zero say in anything regarding the tour’s future. I just thought it would make a good topic of discussion after crunching some data from weeks 5-11 on CC-Pro. Things could be modified off this proposal to make a better system too.