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Post by paulus on Aug 15, 2017 12:45:11 GMT -5
OK I understand, so admin/management was made a bit easier for cross-platform sites like TGCT. But fundamentally you still were only playing against people on your own platform... the leaderboards inside the game were fro your platform only. So unless you registered and used external site you had no cross platform play.
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Post by paulus on Aug 15, 2017 13:05:02 GMT -5
Someone somewhere, whether it's HB, MG, or whoever, clearly didn't care that community run events are the reason TGC1 went so well. They just backstabbed the entire TGCT community. Tim, Doyley, SmilingGoats, and the rest of the staff are the reason TGC1 was so well, and we supported TGC2, but they just took our money and ran. This game is a f*cking disgrace. A quick question and a counter point here if I may. Question - how did they backstab TGCT community? Counter point on the game being a disgrace - how many hours have you clocked up so far? If it's more than 20, you've probably had your money's worth. If it's more than 40, then I'd go as far as to say you actually quite like it (despite it's flaws)...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 13:19:44 GMT -5
The societies are a neat concept, but they should've been an additive, not a replacement for the Play>Tournament option from the menu that allowed all users of any system to compete in the same event. Eliminating that function has essentially eliminated the fantastic community events that were run on the forum. I can see the point that you think unnecessary time spent on something you see as flawed. That's a reasonable position, but I believe it to be wrong - societies do serve a need for those playing outside of TGCT. On the above quote - the reason people were able to see and use the same tournament cross platform is because the lovely admins here took the time to set them up on each platform separately. ie... cross-platform tournies weren't a feature of the last game either. What you are saying is not incorrect, but I feel like you are still missing what I am really saying. Yes, it is true that on our own consoles, if we played a tournament or tour found in the Play>Tour or Play>Tournament feature of TGC1 we would only see other users on the leaderboard from our own console. That is a FACT, and I am not arguing that. But the point is, people from all three consoles could still play the SAME tournament, and then report their scores on the forums, to which the community event organizer would compile them and provide results. In other words, the Tournament was playable by ANYBODY, whereas right now, you can only play in a tournament in a society for which you are a member, therefore a community event organizer would have to be the president of a society on ALL three platforms (how many people own the game in three places?) and then compile the data that way. MUCH harder to do, and not only that, you'll end up with the problem that AS was having, where the societies weren't "equal" so to speak, because they had different numbers of members and they were on different levels. I'm not sure what else to really say to clarify this... it is NOT the same user experience as far as community events go. paulus You seem to be a fan of societies, and thus are defending them pretty heavily. I am not just knocking societies for no good reason. I am pointing out the major flaw in them and the segregation that ensues, which ruins community events as we had known them.
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Post by paulus on Aug 15, 2017 13:34:41 GMT -5
Just playing devil's advocate really VctryLnSprts - think they serve a purpose outside of the TGCT, so not a hater no. Don't use them to a great deal outside of TGCT either - just some friendly play with mates now and again. Get the point now about admin-ing them cross platform being harder - didn't realise this. But I don't think the flaws are really HB's fault per se. My guess is they were probably getting pretty close to the crossing the legal terms of the platform holders with even allowing play config to be shared cross platform - societies are a solution that allows them to be comfortably inside those boundaries. So, probably not something that'll be patched in
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Post by nevadaballin on Aug 15, 2017 14:06:46 GMT -5
I believe HB totally over-thought the Society thing. They could have added in the Societies in a way where it was a supporting feature, not a main feature. Meaning, we could have all created our little clubs and internal tournaments, even had people claim a Primary club. But still have the open event creation outside the clubhouse for everyone. Private and public. It needed to be that way.
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Post by scarpacci on Aug 15, 2017 15:29:19 GMT -5
I believe HB totally over-thought the Society thing. They could have added in the Societies in a way where it was a supporting feature, not a main feature. Meaning, we could have all created our little clubs and internal tournaments, even had people claim a Primary club. But still have the open event creation outside the clubhouse for everyone. Private and public. It needed to be that way. Exactly this. I'm enjoying this discussion, but I don't think using my failed society is accurately highlighting the problem with societies in general and as it relates to TGCT. My society failed on XBox and PS4 because of participation. I was more than happy to collect the results from all 3 systems, but doing for 8-12 people really is't a good use of my time. The only fault HB has in my case, if any, is the inability for anybody outside the forums to find the society. The same problem exists with user created courses and it's a battle we've been fighting for years. Ironically, something I was trying to overcome with this society. Perhaps limiting societies to 5 per person played a small part as well. A decision I could see making sense, if being in a society actually meant something. I assume this part of the game will grow, but like everything else off the course, it's totally incomplete at the moment. TGCT has thousands of participants and compile their own statistics and leaderboards. Yes, they have the API to assist in the process, but it's still a massive undertaking behind the scenes that gets taken for granted sometimes. That said, the best thing to happen around here in TGC1 was when HB overcame the cross platform obstacle by having tournaments published across all 3 platforms. This not only saved a little time for the TGCT admins, but also ALLOWED EVERYBODY TO PLAY IN THE EXACT SAME WIND CONDITIONS. Locking the tournaments into societies means once again needing to publish each event separately, which means more work for the TGCT admins and each platform will be playing in different conditions. How long until that becomes the topic of the month? 1 week? TGCT survived with that issue in the past and I'm confident they will grow in the future thanks to an excellent team of volunteers that will continue to rise above the shortcomings of the game. It's entirely why this place exists. To give us the content HB doesn't.
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Post by jacobkessler on Aug 15, 2017 15:42:28 GMT -5
Someone somewhere, whether it's HB, MG, or whoever, clearly didn't care that community run events are the reason TGC1 went so well. They just backstabbed the entire TGCT community. Tim, Doyley, SmilingGoats, and the rest of the staff are the reason TGC1 was so well, and we supported TGC2, but they just took our money and ran. This game is a f*cking disgrace. A quick question and a counter point here if I may. Question - how did they backstab TGCT community? Counter point on the game being a disgrace - how many hours have you clocked up so far? If it's more than 20, you've probably had your money's worth. If it's more than 40, then I'd go as far as to say you actually quite like it (despite it's flaws)... They backstabbed the TGCT Community by taking out the way we made their game great- Tours. Without the community events to run along with the weekly tours, many people loved the game. If you remove the community events, you lose a fair amount of people. If you remove the weekly tours (which luckily we are still running) you lose probably half of your customers. We trusted them to make it even more efficient for us, we gave them our money, and they said f*ck you! by removing tours. I honestly have over 100 hours, but there's a lot of stuff that factors into why that's so high when I hate the game so much. 1. The first week I hit 30 hours, because I thought it would be decent. 2. I signed up for the design contest, and, while I am really hating the designer, I really want to finish a contest, since I quit the last two. I owe it to Griff and everyone else to finish it. 3. Once I was in the designer for maybe 5-6 hours. Sudden crash and I had to do those 5-6 hours over again. I have not gotten my money's worth though. As much as I say I like designing, the real reason I loved TGC1 is the community events I played in, and those are completely gone now, because societies suck. And anyway, it's my opinion, do you really need to be trying to prove me wrong? Maybe I'm wrong in your mind, but I'm right in mine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 16:22:03 GMT -5
scarpacci I don't consider your society to be "failed." It was a solid attempt within the framework of what we have. But I do think that the participation in the consoles is low because of the way things are set up. Anybody who played it really loved it I think. But the supply is way out of whack with demand. There are hundreds of ridiculous, floundering societies out there, whereas people could invest their time into good ones. Oh well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 16:31:44 GMT -5
On another note, this happened in my private society today... quite entertaining from the tee.
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Post by paulus on Aug 15, 2017 17:04:57 GMT -5
They backstabbed the TGCT Community by taking out the way we made their game great- Tours. Without the community events to run along with the weekly tours, many people loved the game. If you remove the community events, you lose a fair amount of people. If you remove the weekly tours (which luckily we are still running) you lose probably half of your customers. We trusted them to make it even more efficient for us, we gave them our money, and they said f*ck you! by removing tours. I honestly have over 100 hours, but there's a lot of stuff that factors into why that's so high when I hate the game so much. 1. The first week I hit 30 hours, because I thought it would be decent. 2. I signed up for the design contest, and, while I am really hating the designer, I really want to finish a contest, since I quit the last two. I owe it to Griff and everyone else to finish it. 3. Once I was in the designer for maybe 5-6 hours. Sudden crash and I had to do those 5-6 hours over again. I have not gotten my money's worth though. As much as I say I like designing, the real reason I loved TGC1 is the community events I played in, and those are completely gone now, because societies suck. And anyway, it's my opinion, do you really need to be trying to prove me wrong? Maybe I'm wrong in your mind, but I'm right in mine. Not trying to prove you wrong. Just countering with an alternate view - when you post on a public forum, you invite this I consider myself educated when it comes to the new limitations around Societies and can see why that's a big back step. But would be more measured in my opinion about the why. I really have no idea why the decision was made - and my guess is you don't know either? So hard therefore to apportion culpability and animosity. And the 2nd point was just @!$#ing with you a bit really I think it shows you clearly like the game - if you couldn't care less, you wouldn't be posting so passionately. Anyway - here's hoping that things keep improving - I think HB have shown that they will support and improve on what's there for a couple of years at least.
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Post by Ashton Fox on Aug 15, 2017 20:56:04 GMT -5
I think HB wanted to thank TGCT for keeping the first game alive by giving them logos, flags, and some society perks but we're saying to themselves: good luck running your precious little tour now.
I get this feeling that they wanted everything in house with this game.
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Post by Mark (Kram) on Aug 16, 2017 0:35:24 GMT -5
Play>Tournament option from the menu I'm guessing HB could/should have implemented Play<Tour<Tournament<Society
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 16, 2017 8:17:42 GMT -5
Was the residual impact and fallout from this shift away from tours not glaringly obvious to everyone once HB began promoting the addition of societies? I remember expressing my concerns at that time about how that would impact the insane number of community events we had running here, which unfortunately proved true since they are basically all but extinct as the framework to run them in their true form no longer exists.
For me, at least, this isn't a complete shock. It's basically what I expected after taking notice of how much HB was pushing societies pre-launch while simultaneously being really hesitant to talk about so many of the other things we were all wondering about.
This doesn't mean that I like it at all, because it's eroding a lot of the connectivity within this community that was formed through these events - one's that required volunteer organizers to invest time and energy into putting it all together, thus creating a sense of common effort amongst everyone. That just doesn't exist anymore, or at bare minimum doesn't exist anywhere close to the extent that it has in years past. Can you imagine how much less b%&ing and moaning would have been going on here over the past month or so if this community events section of the forum was still able to operate as normal? Yes, the official tours wouldn't be up and running, but the heart of this community was those community ran/organized events. Say what you want, but it is no longer possible for that division of the TGCT community that so many came to love to be as large, inclusive, involved, and connected as it was in TGC1.
HB may well make their yearly sales target, but there is no way tgc2 lasts half as long as tgc1 without the insane amount of community involvement the first game had, which just isn't going to happen within the structure they have provided. They have made a significant change to their platform which, for starters, sets an outright limit on the number of interactive, "tournament" like rounds you can play and puts up barriers to connecting with other players. And that, to me, is a horrendous business decision that I'm not sure I will ever see as anything other than petty jealousy.
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Post by titaneddie on Aug 16, 2017 9:05:12 GMT -5
Agree completely with your last paragraph Smooth. It's almost like they went out of their way on some issues to make things more difficult for tgctours. From a few things I've heard,judging and reading between the lines of what a few of the hb admins have said with some snarky attitude toward certain subjects I think there is definitely some petty jealously. A little bit of an attempt "to take back our game" is what I see. If I'm wrong then it just makes them out to be clueless on some things.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 16, 2017 9:31:10 GMT -5
Yep, it's the classic "Malice vs. Incompetence" scale. It was either a purposeful decision by HB to "take back their game" as you say, or it's complete and utter incompetence in understanding their market/clientele.
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