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Post by Friz on Jun 29, 2017 8:48:21 GMT -5
The level playing field should be the most important thing. I feel like its too early to definitively say its not a level playing field with all 3 club sets an option, but if it got to a point where it was a definitive statement that Players Clubs are better for scoring than Tour, it does become a problem. I for one never want to use Players Clubs because the Tour clubs feel so much like real golf. It should be possible to make a mistake, to miss the fairway (and badly), to shank/hook/skull/etc. a shot. From what I have seen people say about Players Clubs is that mistakes really don't happen, and thats not fun for me. I don't want to coast to low scores, I want to feel like I earned them. So at least in my game, Tour clubs will be the only clubs. I HOPE that with time and practice for everyone, there is a proven balance between all clubs.
But, if after a few weeks, that balance doesn't pan out and Player's Clubs rule the day when it comes to scoring, that is a problem. I don't want to feel like I have to go play easier clubs to compete for the reasons I stated earlier - that would be less fun. But it also wouldn't be much fun sitting at 50th or so on a leaderboard, looking at all the guys above me putting an asterisk next to anyone that uses Players Clubs. It would be like allowing some guys to use Aluminum bats in Major League Baseball.
Level playing field is all it comes down to...I hope the game works itself out so that it is a level playing field without club restriction, but if it didn't I would absolutely be in favor of forced Tour clubs
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 8:49:05 GMT -5
Brian, it's not that the player clubs are too strong (they're the exact same distances as TGC 1 but now with a harder game) but that the tour clubs don't give enough benefit to using them. Look at the driver chart Standard - 240 Player - 265 Tour - 279 IMO, keeping things equal, tour clubs should be 290 off the tee. I don't see how this wasn't even a done deal and am totally baffled at the reasoning behind tour clubs being so terribly nerfed in distance while being so terribly punished in accuracy. In that respect, I think this should have been thought out a bit more. Bottom Line: For 14 lousy more yards, where is my incentive to use Tour Clubs? Also, TGC 2, even without the different clubs, is still not TGC 1 even if you play Player Clubs. Chipping is a whole new can of worms. The 9 iron loft a mile to the sky shot is gone. You really have to learn how to chip now. So the game around the green has changed immensely and is going to penalize a lot of the lofters a ton as it is. With a game that, as I said in my video review, has been "sufficiently" made more difficult, why do we have to make it even harder by forcing players to use a certain kind of club if they want to play in the pros? In the real PGA, you have players who hit the ball 300 yards and you have players who don't. So why are we forcing the issue here? Look, the guys who use Tour Clubs and master them are going to have an advantage over players who use Player Clubs. Granted, not a big enough advantage and hopefully that'll be adjusted over time. But to tell somebody who has been on the tour for 6 months struggling to make it to the pros and FINALLY gets that exemption, "Um, sorry dude. But you're gonna have to play that exemption using Tour Clubs or you'll have to stay in Web" is ridiculous. We might as well just make TGC Tours from PGA down to CC-Z mandatory Tour Clubs. Because unless you're on them, should PGA/Euro force the issue, nobody stands a chance on Player or Standard clubs. Wanna see this place crash and burn? Force people to use Tour Clubs. Anyway, it ain't up to me and I'm happy as heck it isn't because this is one headache I don't need. Good luck to the admins sorting this one out. I don't envy you in the least. I agree with you. But I'd rather nerf the player clubs than buff the tour clubs. Having said that I haven't even took 1 shot yet, my opinions are only on what I've seen and heard so it's all subject to change. Brian, the problem with nerfing the player clubs is that the courses, for the most part, have been designed for 265 yard drives. You mess with that off the tee and it's going to make a lot of the ported courses unplayable or close to it. If there was no TGC 1 and no ported courses, sure, whatever. Hell, make Player 250 off the tee for all I care. At least then, starting from scratch, all courses would be designed with that distance in mind. I mean think about it logically and realistically. TGC 1 didn't have every shot off the tee requiring you to reach 280 yards just to make the fairway. If so, with 265 max distance with no wind or, worse, wind blowing in, the game would have been a train wreck. In real life golf, the beauty of the game is that courses are designed for what a human being can actually hit the ball. It shouldn't be any different here, which is what we did for TGC 1. So nerfing player clubs isn't really an option. Honestly, for tour purposes, standard clubs are totally pointless. You can't possibly use them and compete. Increase the distance off the tee for Tour Clubs and this whole discussion becomes a non issue. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 8:51:21 GMT -5
Actually I do agree with Jack and Wags on this particular point the tour Driver IMO should be a minimum of 290y and scaled down from there. 290 tour 260 player 235 standard something to that effect but it isnt. Moe, because of the way courses have been designed (you still have to allow for TGC 1 port overs) it should be like this. 295 Tour 265 Player 240 Standard You would end up with a lot of people on Standard forcing themselves to learn the tour clubs because of the massive advantage in distance. Right now, the incentive is zero. Literally zero. What's 14 yards going to give me? I'm still baffled at this decision. But force players to use Tour clubs with the way things are now, you might as well close this place down. Few, if any players from Web, will make it up to the PGA/Euro Tour. You'll end up with a stagnant player base up there. In the meantime, those that absolutely can't even make it up there, let alone compete, will eventually grow tired of beating around in Web and quit. The CC guys, ironically, will have the best time. No pressure but the thrill of climbing up the CC ladder playing any club they wish. They will enjoy the game more than anybody else. Personally, I'm looking forward to joining them if I'm forced to use Tour Clubs, which I am now using anyway because I find them more challenging and make the game more rewarding. But no way in hell do I compete with them at this level. They might as well just grant my demotion request (which I've yet to put in) now. My record (8 straight missed cuts) certainly justifies being sent back down to Web because I absolutely don't belong here. On Tour Clubs, that'll be the final nail in the coffin. because you didn't score low before doesn't mean you won't get good with tour clubs because they are a massively different expierince to tgc1. You could hit a shot straight 99 percent of the time on that game, it was all about maths not execution with most shots. You might find players from lower tours smashing pga players with tour clubs. Its so much more about executing the shot now with tour clubs |
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Post by HeMan1202 on Jun 29, 2017 8:54:08 GMT -5
The level playing field should be the most important thing. I feel like its too early to definitively say its not a level playing field with all 3 club sets an option, but if it got to a point where it was a definitive statement that Players Clubs are better for scoring than Tour, it does become a problem. I for one never want to use Players Clubs because the Tour clubs feel so much like real golf. It should be possible to make a mistake, to miss the fairway (and badly), to shank/hook/skull/etc. a shot. From what I have seen people say about Players Clubs is that mistakes really don't happen, and thats not fun for me. I don't want to coast to low scores, I want to feel like I earned them. So at least in my game, Tour clubs will be the only clubs. I HOPE that with time and practice for everyone, there is a proven balance between all clubs. But, if after a few weeks, that balance doesn't pan out and Player's Clubs rule the day when it comes to scoring, that is a problem. I don't want to feel like I have to go play easier clubs to compete for the reasons I stated earlier - that would be less fun. But it also wouldn't be much fun sitting at 50th or so on a leaderboard, looking at all the guys above me putting an asterisk next to anyone that uses Players Clubs. It would be like allowing some guys to use Aluminum bats in Major League Baseball. Level playing field is all it comes down to...I hope the game works itself out so that it is a level playing field without club restriction, but if it didn't I would absolutely be in favor of forced Tour clubs I think this is pretty well stated, good post |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 8:56:02 GMT -5
The level playing field should be the most important thing. I feel like its too early to definitively say its not a level playing field with all 3 club sets an option, but if it got to a point where it was a definitive statement that Players Clubs are better for scoring than Tour, it does become a problem. I for one never want to use Players Clubs because the Tour clubs feel so much like real golf. It should be possible to make a mistake, to miss the fairway (and badly), to shank/hook/skull/etc. a shot. From what I have seen people say about Players Clubs is that mistakes really don't happen, and thats not fun for me. I don't want to coast to low scores, I want to feel like I earned them. So at least in my game, Tour clubs will be the only clubs. I HOPE that with time and practice for everyone, there is a proven balance between all clubs. But, if after a few weeks, that balance doesn't pan out and Player's Clubs rule the day when it comes to scoring, that is a problem. I don't want to feel like I have to go play easier clubs to compete for the reasons I stated earlier - that would be less fun. But it also wouldn't be much fun sitting at 50th or so on a leaderboard, looking at all the guys above me putting an asterisk next to anyone that uses Players Clubs. It would be like allowing some guys to use Aluminum bats in Major League Baseball. Level playing field is all it comes down to...I hope the game works itself out so that it is a level playing field without club restriction, but if it didn't I would absolutely be in favor of forced Tour clubs Eric, you're forgetting one thing. The game isn't just all about hitting off the tee. Have you see what they did to chipping? That alone is going to blow a lot of guys out of the water. Plus, Player Clubs in this game are not easy. I shot 14 under on Little Brook Manor in TGC 1. That same morning, using Player Clubs, I shot 6 under. The game is harder, period. In fact, it doesn't resemble TGC 1 at all even using Player Clubs. Personally, I don't really even have a horse in this race. 1) I'm using Tour Clubs because I find them more fun, even though I struggle terribly wit them. It just makes for a more challenging experience, which is what I wanted from TGC 2. 2) I'm going to be sent back down to Web anyway with 8 straight missed cuts (On TGC 1 mind you) and obviously having no business being up here in the first place. So I don't really care what the admins do. But being fair to everybody else and thinking about the health of the community, you force clubs on golfers and you're opening up a can of worms that you don't want to open up. It is going to fracture this community to the point where I'm not sure it can survive. |
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Post by beamstas on Jun 29, 2017 9:05:46 GMT -5
I think tour needs to be made a little more accurate it feels as though it wildy exagerrates any inaccuracy on the stick to me. Im ok with the timing.
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Post by Friz on Jun 29, 2017 9:05:53 GMT -5
The level playing field should be the most important thing. I feel like its too early to definitively say its not a level playing field with all 3 club sets an option, but if it got to a point where it was a definitive statement that Players Clubs are better for scoring than Tour, it does become a problem. I for one never want to use Players Clubs because the Tour clubs feel so much like real golf. It should be possible to make a mistake, to miss the fairway (and badly), to shank/hook/skull/etc. a shot. From what I have seen people say about Players Clubs is that mistakes really don't happen, and thats not fun for me. I don't want to coast to low scores, I want to feel like I earned them. So at least in my game, Tour clubs will be the only clubs. I HOPE that with time and practice for everyone, there is a proven balance between all clubs. But, if after a few weeks, that balance doesn't pan out and Player's Clubs rule the day when it comes to scoring, that is a problem. I don't want to feel like I have to go play easier clubs to compete for the reasons I stated earlier - that would be less fun. But it also wouldn't be much fun sitting at 50th or so on a leaderboard, looking at all the guys above me putting an asterisk next to anyone that uses Players Clubs. It would be like allowing some guys to use Aluminum bats in Major League Baseball. Level playing field is all it comes down to...I hope the game works itself out so that it is a level playing field without club restriction, but if it didn't I would absolutely be in favor of forced Tour clubs Eric, you're forgetting one thing. The game isn't just all about hitting off the tee. Have you see what they did to chipping? That alone is going to blow a lot of guys out of the water. Plus, Player Clubs in this game are not easy. I shot 14 under on Little Brook Manor in TGC 1. That same morning, using Player Clubs, I shot 6 under. The game is harder, period. In fact, it doesn't resemble TGC 1 at all even using Player Clubs. Personally, I don't really even have a horse in this race. 1) I'm using Tour Clubs because I find them more fun, even though I struggle terribly wit them. It just makes for a more challenging experience, which is what I wanted from TGC 2. 2) I'm going to be sent back down to Web anyway with 8 straight missed cuts (On TGC 1 mind you) and obviously having no business being up here in the first place. So I don't really care what the admins do. But being fair to everybody else and thinking about the health of the community, you force clubs on golfers and you're opening up a can of worms that you don't want to open up. It is going to fracture this community to the point where I'm not sure it can survive. I didn't play TGC1 so I have no comparison between the games. I find chipping probably my worst skill so far on Tour clubs, but also feel like I can get better with practice, as it should be. Honestly the off the tee is secondary to me, I think the most important shot when it comes to potential differences between Tour and Player is the one into the green. If Player clubs allow you to avoid mistakes, you're probably going to be throwing darts at the pin a lot more than if you're on Tour clubs, regardless how far out you are. That is the one shot in the game you should really need to execute, and as I'm just hearing from others, Players Clubs make that more automatic. But as you said, Tour Clubs are more fun - bigger challenge, potential mistakes, more like golf. I think that has been a consistent point in this thread from those that use them, even those that don't use them well. I just don't want to feel like using them is going to cost me positioning in a tournament due to an un-level playing field. That would make the tournaments less fun even if the actual golf is more enjoyable |
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Post by ErixonStone on Jun 29, 2017 9:15:44 GMT -5
It's not a fair comparison as the top players on the top tours should use the most difficult swing. That is of course just my opinion.
What will change about the courses aside from length that would make courses suited to the Tour swing? And even when the courses are lengthened, at what point does it truly differentiate the tour clubs from the players clubs, 8000, 8300? Do you want to make it so unless you use Tour clubs you can't even reach the green on approach without a 3W or not even be able to reach at all on Par 5's and some Par 4's? If the courses at the top level tours are going to force people to use Tour clubs or not be able to compete, why not just mandate Tour clubs?
I honestly think that courses will not be made at some stupid length and approaches using Players clubs at worst will call on a 3/4/5 iron in which is very doable to a good player with little consequence of risk. I don't think HB is going to mess with the swing difficulties and what we have now is what we will have.
Course design change #1: Wider fairways and fewer punishing water hazards. That takes away much of the penalty for missing left/right. Course design change #2: more lengthy holes. This means a couple of 500-yard par 4s. It also means that driveable par 4 is 315 instead of 290. We'll see more 200 yard par 3s with difficult pins. It doesn't mean that courses should have 18 holes like this, but 3 or 4 instead of 1 or 2 is enough to give a significant advantage. Course design change #3: Less-punishing greens. Wider landing areas and larger flat areas to accommodate wider radius of quality shots. Basically, these design changes de-emphasize accuracy and favor length and spin. It's also only been a couple of days. More people will master the Tour swing and those that do will have an advantage. |
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Post by KenTremendous on Jun 29, 2017 9:20:12 GMT -5
From what I have seen people say about Players Clubs is that mistakes really don't happen They absolutely still do - just not as frequent as with Tour. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 9:25:59 GMT -5
Eric, you're forgetting one thing. The game isn't just all about hitting off the tee. Have you see what they did to chipping? That alone is going to blow a lot of guys out of the water. Plus, Player Clubs in this game are not easy. I shot 14 under on Little Brook Manor in TGC 1. That same morning, using Player Clubs, I shot 6 under. The game is harder, period. In fact, it doesn't resemble TGC 1 at all even using Player Clubs. Personally, I don't really even have a horse in this race. 1) I'm using Tour Clubs because I find them more fun, even though I struggle terribly wit them. It just makes for a more challenging experience, which is what I wanted from TGC 2. 2) I'm going to be sent back down to Web anyway with 8 straight missed cuts (On TGC 1 mind you) and obviously having no business being up here in the first place. So I don't really care what the admins do. But being fair to everybody else and thinking about the health of the community, you force clubs on golfers and you're opening up a can of worms that you don't want to open up. It is going to fracture this community to the point where I'm not sure it can survive. I didn't play TGC1 so I have no comparison between the games. I find chipping probably my worst skill so far on Tour clubs, but also feel like I can get better with practice, as it should be. Honestly the off the tee is secondary to me, I think the most important shot when it comes to potential differences between Tour and Player is the one into the green. If Player clubs allow you to avoid mistakes, you're probably going to be throwing darts at the pin a lot more than if you're on Tour clubs, regardless how far out you are. That is the one shot in the game you should really need to execute, and as I'm just hearing from others, Players Clubs make that more automatic. But as you said, Tour Clubs are more fun - bigger challenge, potential mistakes, more like golf. I think that has been a consistent point in this thread from those that use them, even those that don't use them well. I just don't want to feel like using them is going to cost me positioning in a tournament due to an un-level playing field. That would make the tournaments less fun even if the actual golf is more enjoyable Once you make your way down to the irons, tour clubs aren't that hard so approach shots aren't that tough. The problem is hitting it straight off the tee. Next to chipping, that is the hardest shot in this game at tour setting. If you hit it straight off the tee, every shot from thereon isn't that hard. I'm going to play more today and will be able to give more feedback as I do. But forced clubs is not the solution to this problem. Ever wonder why so few people here play TST? People don't like to be forced to do things. TST has so many restrictions, and the tour is so frustrating that I finally gave up on it. Want to turn TGC Tours into a ghost town? Tell golfers that they have to play Tour Clubs to play. And effectively, that's what you're doing. Not just for PGA/Euro but for everybody. Assuming everybody's goal here is to make it out of the tour they're in and into PGA/Euro, what do you think is going to happen to the guy in CC-C who is just about getting by with Player Clubs, finally starts to get his game together, makes it up to Web after a few months, finally gets his exemption and is told he has to use Tour Clubs to use it? Now, he's actually going to know this BEFORE he even gets to Web. So he's going to be defeated before he even begins IF he's tried Tour Clubs and can't even hit the ball straight enough to break 90. He's not even going to bother to play. There is no incentive for him any longer. He knows the highest level he's ever going to achieve is Web. Either that OR the imbalance between the tours is going to be so bad that they're going to have to change making it to Web to the criteria that used to be in place for PGA, only the top exempt gets their card. This is turn will turn CC into a zoo. You're going to end up with 500 players in CC-A over time. Trust me, there are things in this game that you DON'T want to mess with. TST has taught us that. Forced clubs? Watch the chaos that ensues thereafter. |
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Post by smurfblade88 on Jun 29, 2017 9:27:12 GMT -5
I agree with you. But I'd rather nerf the player clubs than buff the tour clubs. Having said that I haven't even took 1 shot yet, my opinions are only on what I've seen and heard so it's all subject to change. Brian, the problem with nerfing the player clubs is that the courses, for the most part, have been designed for 265 yard drives. You mess with that off the tee and it's going to make a lot of the ported courses unplayable or close to it. If there was no TGC 1 and no ported courses, sure, whatever. Hell, make Player 250 off the tee for all I care. At least then, starting from scratch, all courses would be designed with that distance in mind. I mean think about it logically and realistically. TGC 1 didn't have every shot off the tee requiring you to reach 280 yards just to make the fairway. If so, with 265 max distance with no wind or, worse, wind blowing in, the game would have been a train wreck. In real life golf, the beauty of the game is that courses are designed for what a human being can actually hit the ball. It shouldn't be any different here, which is what we did for TGC 1. So nerfing player clubs isn't really an option. Honestly, for tour purposes, standard clubs are totally pointless. You can't possibly use them and compete. Increase the distance off the tee for Tour Clubs and this whole discussion becomes a non issue. Maybe but increasing the tour clubs lenght is going to turn this game into a pitch and putt competition. Most courses that are getting ported over should be RCRs where the distance accurately resembles the real course. Sure this is a new game anyways. It should be dependant on old courses and I think I'm right in saying any course coming from tgc 1 can be edited before release so yardages can be altered. I don't wanna see the tour clubs turn this game into a Mickey mouse EA golf game. It coulbe as simple as taking 5 yards off player clubs and adding 5 yards to tour clubs.... Or even just taking 10 off player clubs. |
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Post by HeMan1202 on Jun 29, 2017 9:29:26 GMT -5
I didn't play TGC1 so I have no comparison between the games. I find chipping probably my worst skill so far on Tour clubs, but also feel like I can get better with practice, as it should be. Honestly the off the tee is secondary to me, I think the most important shot when it comes to potential differences between Tour and Player is the one into the green. If Player clubs allow you to avoid mistakes, you're probably going to be throwing darts at the pin a lot more than if you're on Tour clubs, regardless how far out you are. That is the one shot in the game you should really need to execute, and as I'm just hearing from others, Players Clubs make that more automatic. But as you said, Tour Clubs are more fun - bigger challenge, potential mistakes, more like golf. I think that has been a consistent point in this thread from those that use them, even those that don't use them well. I just don't want to feel like using them is going to cost me positioning in a tournament due to an un-level playing field. That would make the tournaments less fun even if the actual golf is more enjoyable Once you make your way down to the irons, tour clubs aren't that hard so approach shots aren't that tough. The problem is hitting it straight off the tee. Next to chipping, that is the hardest shot in this game at tour setting. If you hit it straight off the tee, every shot from thereon isn't that hard. I'm going to play more today and will be able to give more feedback as I do. But forced clubs is not the solution to this problem. Ever wonder why so few people here play TST? People don't like to be forced to do things. TST has so many restrictions, and the tour is so frustrating that I finally gave up on it. Want to turn TGC Tours into a ghost town? Tell golfers that they have to play Tour Clubs to play. And effectively, that's what you're doing. Not just for PGA/Euro but for everybody. Assuming everybody's goal here is to make it out of the tour they're in and into PGA/Euro, what do you think is going to happen to the guy in CC-C who is just about getting by with Player Clubs, finally starts to get his game together, makes it up to Web after a few months, finally gets his exemption and is told he has to use Tour Clubs to use it? Now, he's actually going to know this BEFORE he even gets to Web. So he's going to be defeated before he even begins IF he's tried Tour Clubs and can't even hit the ball straight enough to break 90. He's not even going to bother to play. There is no incentive for him any longer. He knows the highest level he's ever going to achieve is Web. Either that OR the imbalance between the tours is going to be so bad that they're going to have to change making it to Web to the criteria that used to be in place for PGA, only the top exempt gets their card. This is turn will turn CC into a zoo. You're going to end up with 500 players in CC-A over time. Trust me, there are things in this game that you DON'T want to mess with. TST has taught us that. Forced clubs? Watch the chaos that ensues thereafter. Want to see people leave, tell them they missed the cut and are being demoted from top tours because "pros" are using Players clubs. It can go both ways. |
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Post by KenTremendous on Jun 29, 2017 9:32:19 GMT -5
But in that case they would have the choice to use Player Clubs too - that choice doesnt exist if Tour Clubs are forced.
Its a hard debate, for sure.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Jun 29, 2017 9:33:24 GMT -5
Personally I have no intention of reverting to an easier swing whatever happens
If that means not playing the tours then so be it.
TGC2 was supposed to be a new lease of life for TGCT - if the Players Clubs are allowed on the Top Tours then it will end up being an almost identical experience to what we've been doing for the last 2 years.
For the pro Tours it's really not a hard call IMO
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 9:34:18 GMT -5
Once you make your way down to the irons, tour clubs aren't that hard so approach shots aren't that tough. The problem is hitting it straight off the tee. Next to chipping, that is the hardest shot in this game at tour setting. If you hit it straight off the tee, every shot from thereon isn't that hard. I'm going to play more today and will be able to give more feedback as I do. But forced clubs is not the solution to this problem. Ever wonder why so few people here play TST? People don't like to be forced to do things. TST has so many restrictions, and the tour is so frustrating that I finally gave up on it. Want to turn TGC Tours into a ghost town? Tell golfers that they have to play Tour Clubs to play. And effectively, that's what you're doing. Not just for PGA/Euro but for everybody. Assuming everybody's goal here is to make it out of the tour they're in and into PGA/Euro, what do you think is going to happen to the guy in CC-C who is just about getting by with Player Clubs, finally starts to get his game together, makes it up to Web after a few months, finally gets his exemption and is told he has to use Tour Clubs to use it? Now, he's actually going to know this BEFORE he even gets to Web. So he's going to be defeated before he even begins IF he's tried Tour Clubs and can't even hit the ball straight enough to break 90. He's not even going to bother to play. There is no incentive for him any longer. He knows the highest level he's ever going to achieve is Web. Either that OR the imbalance between the tours is going to be so bad that they're going to have to change making it to Web to the criteria that used to be in place for PGA, only the top exempt gets their card. This is turn will turn CC into a zoo. You're going to end up with 500 players in CC-A over time. Trust me, there are things in this game that you DON'T want to mess with. TST has taught us that. Forced clubs? Watch the chaos that ensues thereafter. Want to see people leave, tell them they missed the cut and are being demoted from top tours because "pros" are using Players clubs. It can go both ways. Except nothing is stopping them from using Player Clubs. There is a HUGE difference between giving golfers options and FORCING golfers to do something. Besides, as far as I'm concerned, you're not good enough to use Tour Clubs accurately? Too bad. Don't use them. Nobody is forcing you to. But the guys who eventually nail Tour Clubs like they're nothing are going to leave everybody else in the dust PROVIDED they alter the difference in the distances off the tee. Right now, there is ZERO incentive to use a club that only gives you 14 more yards off the tee. In short, you will lose fewer players giving options than you will forcing clubs. If you took a poll, I'd bet every dollar in my bank account on that. |
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- Season 2 winner of the Golden Cow
