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Post by scarpacci on Feb 21, 2016 2:05:35 GMT -5
This week's tour stop is my Spectacle Island and I expected a bit of backlash. I'm not super sensitive, especially with this course since it's not really the type of course I would prefer to build, but I would to address some of the negative comments already posted. "it's a poor course"I wonder what the reaction would be if I said you were just a poor player? Please keep in mind people pour hundreds of hours into designing courses for this tour and this type of unconstructive criticism is uncalled for. You don't like it, fine. But why don't you like it? Because you played it once in 18mph wind and couldn't score well? Or maybe you've played it 30 times and it has legitimate flaws? How am I supposed to know? This offers nothing but an insult to the designer (me) and if I were to go around insulting players the way they insult courses I wouldn't be a very popular individual around here. For some reason it has become completely acceptable to throw these types of comments around. Double standard. "No disrespect to creator but how this course got approved by tgc is ridiculous"No disrespect but how did you ever earn a tour card? See? I would be a complete dick if I said something like that. But I guess "no disrespect" makes it OK. Now, on to the course itself. Yes, it's hard. But is it really over the top? Shooting 59 in 12-15 mph winds, which was done in the first round, would suggest otherwise. I was -8 after 15 holes until I melted down and finished -6 in those same conditions. -5 in rd 2. I normally struggle to make cuts and my -11 will probably barely make it. Is that unacceptable? Saturday is really hard. If somebody were to tell me it's gone too far I would have a hard time arguing that. Somebody already posted -9 on Saturday. So the players skills are allowed to be over the top but the course can't be? Double standard. What happened in real golf when Tiger Woods started demolishing courses like nobody has ever before? The designers fought back and courses were adapted to fit a new game. That's not allowed here though. Why? Unrealistic is thrown around all the time to describe FW width, slope, pin placement, et al. Are the players skills and ease to pull off impossible shots not unrealistic? In a game which it is so simple to pull off the exact shot you're attempting is it really completely unreasonable for the designer to make the margin for error extreem? I get it, it's a game and you want to have fun. It's also a competition to reward the best players. It's not the courses fault you can't compete. Everybody is playing the same course in the same conditions. May the best virtual golfer win. "But it's not rewarding the best players because you need to be lucky to get the ball close" Wrong. Guarantee the best player that week finishes on top. You'll only need luck if you don't execute the perfect shot. The best player will execute those shots and not need to rely on luck. If you want to play a fun game try this: Design a course that gets used on tour and gets absolutely ripped apart by the best players and listen to everybody that finishes outside the top 10 complain the course is too easy. Then design a course that gets used on tour and plays tough and listen to everybody who finished outside the top 10 complain that the course is unfair. It's a fun game. I call it "Screw it". Anyway, carry on, I just wanted to get that off my chest. No hard feelings. I just ask that you please direct any hate toward the course to this thread so I can have a chance to rebut without hijacking the locker room. Also, no disrespect, but you're ugly and I hate you.
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Post by drlowdon on Feb 21, 2016 2:34:00 GMT -5
I think some people just dislike any course that uses firm greens but, from my experience, using firm greens is just about the only way to make a course in any way challenging for the top players without 'tricking it up'. We've played a couple of courses on the Euro Tour recently with firm greens where you literally couldn't hold the greens on some holes, and that just became irritating after a 2 or 3 rounds, but that's not the case with Spectacle Island which for me makes good use of the firm settings by allowing the room to run the ball up to the pin. I played this course a little while back and did add it to my list of recommended courses from PS4 designers here: www.hb-studios.com/forum/index.php?topic=13547.0 if you haven't already seen it.
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Post by hilyerchris on Feb 21, 2016 3:04:41 GMT -5
I am here on an exemption this week, and 2 months ago was in CC-D so was kind of apprehensive anyway! I can safely say your course ripped me a new one for the majority of the time....and yet i loved it! For me anyway, it was a real battle on every hole. Having played most of my golf on CC i am not used to the courses as much, but the only way to improve as a player is to play on tough courses and try to figure them out. I managed to score under par on every round, which i was delighted with, and even got an ace in my final round, although it wont count sadly...but i dont care...great course and great challenge, so thank you.
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Post by bogeyman on Feb 21, 2016 3:33:30 GMT -5
I am here on an exemption this week, and 2 months ago was in CC-D so was kind of apprehensive anyway! I can safely say your course ripped me a new one for the majority of the time....and yet i loved it! For me anyway, it was a real battle on every hole. Having played most of my golf on CC i am not used to the courses as much, but the only way to improve as a player is to play on tough courses and try to figure them out. I managed to score under par on every round, which i was delighted with, and even got an ace in my final round, although it wont count sadly...but i dont care...great course and great challenge, so thank you. Chris congratz on the exemption btw. I wondered if you'd use it straightaway or not. I know it must've been a little scary zooming thru' to Euro like you did. But hey you've done really well and even if you don't make this cut they'll be many other opportunities I'm sure.
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Post by bogeyman on Feb 21, 2016 3:39:55 GMT -5
Anyway, carry on, I just wanted to get that off my chest. No hard feelings. I just ask that you please direct any hate toward the course to this thread so I can have a chance to rebut without hijacking the locker room. Also, no disrespect, but you're ugly and I hate you. Antonio this is freakin' hilarious I love it. On a more serious note I agree with everything you said. Designers are the lifeblood of this game/competition and the people who carelessly heap criticism on courses for no good reason are just ratbags. Well stated and said. Good on you.
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Millsatron
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 118
TGCT Name: Craig "Millsy" Ellis
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Post by Millsatron on Feb 21, 2016 5:15:54 GMT -5
Great post Scarpacci. Some of the pins are crazy tricky to get at, but we all have to play the same course, so, I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape. It's simply ignorance if a criticism is backed up with nothing constructive, and normally just suggests that someone has had a bad round. They're probably just pissed that they broke their controller playing "your course", so I would take all of the critical comments with a pinch of salt.
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Post by Wildrover on Feb 21, 2016 6:22:56 GMT -5
Firstly let me start off by saying I generally like your courses dude.. I've told u as much! Not every course will b to everyone's liking and the course just didn't suit me.. I didn't play well enough,simple.... but I'd b a liar if I said I remotely enjoyed this type of challenge where I felt the green layout especially was a little OTT in a number of places.. I still appreciate the hours u put into the making of the course.. As I do all designers that take time and effort to do so.. I'd like to conclude by saying I've seen some criticism on these forums of other courses in the past (some from the elite on the game) that was very harsh in terms of the disrespect showin to the designer imo..As I've stated before it's impossible to please everyone on tgct.
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Post by Wildrover on Feb 21, 2016 6:57:50 GMT -5
I'd like to add 2 more things Back in 2011 @ the masters... I bet a very young Rory McIlroy loved every minute of the first 63 holes, but the final 9 holes had him wishing the ground would swallow him up.. My point.. If I wouldn't have played so poor this weekend I might have seen the course as a whole in a slightly different light. I just felt every slight error I had was punished in the extreme and after a very poor halfway score and certain missed cut my misery was Kathy Bates like compounded.. Won't be dashing back to Spectacle links anytime soon...
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Post by drlowdon on Feb 21, 2016 8:49:30 GMT -5
If I can manage to shoot -10 in round 1 it can't be an unfair course in any way.
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Post by pablo on Feb 21, 2016 9:12:44 GMT -5
This week's tour stop is my Spectacle Island and I expected a bit of backlash. I'm not super sensitive, especially with this course since it's not really the type of course I would prefer to build, but I would to address some of the negative comments already posted. "it's a poor course"I wonder what the reaction would be if I said you were just a poor player? Please keep in mind people pour hundreds of hours into designing courses for this tour and this type of unconstructive criticism is uncalled for. You don't like it, fine. But why don't you like it? Because you played it once in 18mph wind and couldn't score well? Or maybe you've played it 30 times and it has legitimate flaws? How am I supposed to know? This offers nothing but an insult to the designer (me) and if I were to go around insulting players the way they insult courses I wouldn't be a very popular individual around here. For some reason it has become completely acceptable to throw these types of comments around. Double standard. "No disrespect to creator but how this course got approved by tgc is ridiculous"No disrespect but how did you ever earn a tour card? See? I would be a complete dick if I said something like that. But I guess "no disrespect" makes it OK. Now, on to the course itself. Yes, it's hard. But is it really over the top? Shooting 59 in 12-15 mph winds, which was done in the first round, would suggest otherwise. I was -8 after 15 holes until I melted down and finished -6 in those same conditions. -5 in rd 2. I normally struggle to make cuts and my -11 will probably barely make it. Is that unacceptable? Saturday is really hard. If somebody were to tell me it's gone too far I would have a hard time arguing that. Somebody already posted -9 on Saturday. So the players skills are allowed to be over the top but the course can't be? Double standard. What happened in real golf when Tiger Woods started demolishing courses like nobody has ever before? The designers fought back and courses were adapted to fit a new game. That's not allowed here though. Why? Unrealistic is thrown around all the time to describe FW width, slope, pin placement, et al. Are the players skills and ease to pull off impossible shots not unrealistic? In a game which it is so simple to pull off the exact shot you're attempting is it really completely unreasonable for the designer to make the margin for error extreem? I get it, it's a game and you want to have fun. It's also a competition to reward the best players. It's not the courses fault you can't compete. Everybody is playing the same course in the same conditions. May the best virtual golfer win. "But it's not rewarding the best players because you need to be lucky to get the ball close" Wrong. Guarantee the best player that week finishes on top. You'll only need luck if you don't execute the perfect shot. The best player will execute those shots and not need to rely on luck. If you want to play a fun game try this: Design a course that gets used on tour and gets absolutely ripped apart by the best players and listen to everybody that finishes outside the top 10 complain the course is too easy. Then design a course that gets used on tour and plays tough and listen to everybody who finished outside the top 10 complain that the course is unfair. It's a fun game. I call it "Screw it". Anyway, carry on, I just wanted to get that off my chest. No hard feelings. I just ask that you please direct any hate toward the course to this thread so I can have a chance to rebut without hijacking the locker room. Also, no disrespect, but you're ugly and I hate you. I just know I played the first round of the event. I shot -5, which is not an outstanding score, but if a cc player can shoot like that in a firm course, that only can mean that the course is very well built for that kind of terrain firmness. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the colours in the course, but that's only a matter of tastes, and those brownish roughs work very nicely in the course, so I think any criticism about playability of the course is out of place (one thing is not being able to handle it, and another thing is saying it can't be done)
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Post by t2theb2 on Feb 21, 2016 11:21:39 GMT -5
It is a shame that people seem to think a good course is one that keeps scores low. That is not the case. Round 1 and 2 are fine apart from 1 or 2 red downslopes in landing areas. Rounds 3 is not designed for that firmness. To many red slopes (mainly from front to back) make for having no shot what so ever. If the firmness was toned down in that round it would be fine. Not got to round 4 yet.
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Post by scarpacci on Feb 21, 2016 11:44:04 GMT -5
Firstly let me start off by saying I generally like your courses dude.. I've told u as much! Not every course will b to everyone's liking and the course just didn't suit me.. I didn't play well enough,simple.... but I'd b a liar if I said I remotely enjoyed this type of challenge where I felt the green layout especially was a little OTT in a number of places.. I still appreciate the hours u put into the making of the course.. As I do all designers that take time and effort to do so.. I'd like to conclude by saying I've seen some criticism on these forums of other courses in the past (some from the elite on the game) that was very harsh in terms of the disrespect showin to the designer imo..As I've stated before it's impossible to please everyone on tgct. Hi Tony, I have no problem with the way you have communicated your thoughts on the course. In fact, it's exactly what I'm asking for and I agree with you for the most part. It's the little pot shots that get me. I'm not all up in arms about it or anything. Its seems like HB is serious about giving us difficulty options and I hope TGCTours adopts whatever changes they make for the PGA/Euro so realistic courses can yield more realistic scores. However, I do wonder if the same people who can't handle scoring realistic scores on this course will feel any better about themselves. What is the difference? If the difficulty goes up and -18 wins the Masters, are people then going to start complaining that the slopes are too harsh a Magnolia? -3 won the 2013 Open Championship at Muirfield. The 2013 setup was just used on tour and -50 was the winning score. That's a birdie on 2 out of every 3 holes. Is that realistic? Isn't that a bit over the top? I also think it's easier to pick on fictional courses. The 4th hole at Muirfield was over the top on Saturday but I didn't hear anybody complain about that.
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Post by scarpacci on Feb 21, 2016 12:13:35 GMT -5
"Yeah they are both firm and fast just no light rough on Spec. and 7800yds. Love all your courses, but 7800yds with a driver that barely goes over 280,lol. Gl guys"
Comment from another thread. I'm not picking on it, just wanted to respond to it.
The fairways are 60-70 yards wide. Is there really a need for light rough? Is it unreasonable to be punished severely for missing a fairway of that width? The greens are gigantic. You guys choose to attempt to get the ball as close as possible knowing if you miss you will have easy chip or flop back. It's apparently unacceptable to leave a player a tricky birdie putt and it's also unacceptable to try and deter "playing for chips" by not guaranteeing a perfect lie off the green.
Most of the tee shots have large elevation drops and combined with the firm conditions most drives will travel over 300 yards. The course plays shorted than the listed yardage, except for Friday. Friday set-up is nearly 8000 yards with soft fairways and there is still only 2 or 3 holes that require more than a 4 iron in (depending on the wind).
Again, not butt hurt about the comment above, just trying to get all my comments in one place.
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Post by Wildrover on Feb 21, 2016 12:16:53 GMT -5
Firstly let me start off by saying I generally like your courses dude.. I've told u as much! Not every course will b to everyone's liking and the course just didn't suit me.. I didn't play well enough,simple.... but I'd b a liar if I said I remotely enjoyed this type of challenge where I felt the green layout especially was a little OTT in a number of places.. I still appreciate the hours u put into the making of the course.. As I do all designers that take time and effort to do so.. I'd like to conclude by saying I've seen some criticism on these forums of other courses in the past (some from the elite on the game) that was very harsh in terms of the disrespect showin to the designer imo..As I've stated before it's impossible to please everyone on tgct. Hi Tony, I have no problem with the way you have communicated your thoughts on the course. In fact, it's exactly what I'm asking for and I agree with you for the most part. It's the little pot shots that get me. I'm not all up in arms about it or anything. Its seems like HB is serious about giving us difficulty options and I hope TGCTours adopts whatever changes they make for the PGA/Euro so realistic courses can yield more realistic scores. However, I do wonder if the same people who can't handle scoring realistic scores on this course will feel any better about themselves. What is the difference? If the difficulty goes up and -18 wins the Masters, are people then going to start complaining that the slopes are too harsh a Magnolia? -3 won the 2013 Open Championship at Muirfield. The 2013 setup was just used on tour and -50 was the winning score. That's a birdie on 2 out of every 3 holes. Is that realistic? Isn't that a bit over the top? I also think it's easier to pick on fictional courses. The 4th hole at Muirfield was over the top on Saturday but I didn't hear anybody complain about that. I hear wat your saying.. You've made a number of fair points there.. My putter went so cold yesterday in the opening rounds, I felt I putted well @ Muirfield so its not the courses fault I hit a very shoddy total as many are shooting low..I've played worse courses on tgc.. Not all courses will suit folk and that's the beauty of tgct. I love magnolia, especially the latest version. Sometimes it doesn't love me though
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Post by scarpacci on Feb 21, 2016 12:18:03 GMT -5
It is a shame that people seem to think a good course is one that keeps scores low. That is not the case. Round 1 and 2 are fine apart from 1 or 2 red downslopes in landing areas. Rounds 3 is not designed for that firmness. To many red slopes (mainly from front to back) make for having no shot what so ever. If the firmness was toned down in that round it would be fine. Not got to round 4 yet. Round 4 is a mixed bag. Little shorter, some easier pins & some hard. I haven't got there yet myself so i don't know the wind conditions but you should shoot lower on Sunday. Saturday set-up is silly hard for me and I'm just hoping to shoot even par.
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