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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 8:02:43 GMT -5
the problem I had wasnt more difficult courses harder opponents I welcome that but this love for concrete greens disturbs me last weeks pga course was challenging enough with slow greens but they seem to have an unatural love for firm and fast which i dont share thats it if i ever make the pro tour i welcome the challenge but there must be better ways to make it challenging just my point of view There is no real way to make it challenging for the best players here. They have the ability to plot their way around any course under any conditions. To keep scoring respectable, the conditions are tougher, so the lesser players (myself) have to grind big time. Not everybody's "cup of tea ". I personally would get less satisfaction by playing so called "birdie-fest" courses again. yes I agree but there must be an middle thing between birdie fests and hockey rinks dont get me wrong i enjoy hockey games and I have no real problem playing well in these rocky greens I simply dont enjoy them
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Jan 12, 2016 8:07:39 GMT -5
Can't speak for the PGA but the Euro Tour has probably 1/3 firm courses this season - the next few weeks will be much simpler.
I haven't voted because i'm not a web player, but i'm firmly of the belief that the tours should be about progressing, and if you're skilful enough to progress, you absolutely should. IRL if a web.com player is given a chance to play on the PGA Tour, he grabs it with both hands.
If the PGA/Euro guys qualify for a Major/WGC they have to play or sit out, they can't choose to go and play a lesser event because they've got more chance of winning. Should be the same with exemptions IMO
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 8:13:11 GMT -5
Can't speak for the PGA but the Euro Tour has probably 1/3 firm courses this season - the next few weeks will be much more scorable. I haven't voted because i'm not a web player, but i'm firmly of the belief that the tours should be about progressing, and if you're skilful enough to progress, you absolutely should. IRL if a web.com player is given a chance to play on the PGA Tour, he grabs it with both hands. but surely you agree that stone hard ice rinks are not enjoyable?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 8:55:10 GMT -5
The highest firm setting is borderline unplayable but some courses can pull it off with good use off slopes and contouring (Royal Lytham and a couple of others on the european tour this season. However some courses have slopes which don't work with firmer settings, this weeks course on the European Tour being the biggest culprit that I've played on. I quit half way through my second round as you couldn't hold some of the greens no matter what you did. Either HB need to lower the highest firm setting to something between medium and firm or courses that can't handle firm settings need to be dropped to medium in my opinion.
As for exemptions, I believe they should be mandatory and maybe once we get to July/August they won't be available as the fight for the money list gets into full throttle.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 9:02:40 GMT -5
I am going to bring up actual examples that happened last season.
As far as I know, I am the only one to get the Battlefield Promotion. I got 3 Web wins (and another top 5). So I had three chances to use and exemption (after the 3rd win I automatically moved up to PGA.
I moved back up to Web.com from CC-A later in the season. I had a small $$$ stake as I had played three events on Web-A (the equivalent of Web.com before the Challenge Circuits were created). Three things factored in to not take the exemptions.
1) It was later in the year and there were a lot of WGC and Majors going on and you cannot earn a promotion in a minor event while a Major/WGC/The Players is going on.
2) The Top 10 in the end of season $$$ standings earn an automatic Top Tour card. I was in that mix. I wanted to earn it that way.
3) This was most important... with so little left in the PGA season, there wasn't enough time to earn FedEx points. I would just be pushed back into the Web.com Finals, which is where I would have been anyways had I stayed in Web.com. So there was very little incentive to move up at that point.
In the end, I had to move up. I had exactly ONE PGA event before the FedEx Playoffs last year. I finished t-22nd or t-23rd. Once they took out inactives and European players, I actually ended up 123rd in FedEx standings where the top 125 make it in to the playoffs. I had a decent finish in the first playoff event, moving into 88th or so out of 100 going in to event two. I had the lead in the 2nd playoff event on PGA going into round 4, but choked it away and ended up t-5. That was enough to get to the top70 in FedEx pts and move on to the 3rd playoff event. That was the cutoff last year to guarantee your card... making the 3rd playoff event.
But back to the topic... I voted no it shouldn't be mandatory because circumstances are different for everyone, and also the time of the season that one gets and exemption plays a role.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 9:15:53 GMT -5
Bob, How about a rule where exemptions are mandatory but late into the season, say end of July, exemptions stop and you have to earn it by the money list/web finals? Would stop what happened to you. 3 wins and promoted should be out the window too so if you won 3 events in August you'd just stay on in web until season's end, which is like September, when you then get your card for finishing high in the money list.
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Post by Lowenberger on Jan 12, 2016 9:46:19 GMT -5
Maybe exemptions should be like the battlefield promotion... once you get 2 or 3, then it is mandatory. Although if someone is set on staying in web, they could always just throw the PGA/EURO event.
For what its worth, my game has improved significantly after making the PGA. Being able to watch the ghost balls of some of the top players in the game, as well as just the added motivation of higher standards really helps.
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Post by Moe Slorkman on Jan 12, 2016 9:53:52 GMT -5
Bob, How about a rule where exemptions are mandatory but late into the season, say end of July, exemptions stop and you have to earn it by the money list/web finals? Would stop what happened to you. 3 wins and promoted should be out the window too so if you won 3 events in August you'd just stay on in web until season's end, which is like September, when you then get your card for finishing high in the money list. I think what Luke is saying is spot on if its coming down to the crunch end of the season they should be optional if your in the hunt for a high overall finish decline if your just floating around the middle go for it or not your choice! But this has been going on since week 1 and stuttering the flow up to PGA/Euro as I pointed out 6 of 8 of last weeks weren't used and One player has reneged on 5 exemptions so that alone is 11 potential PGA/Euro players that have been blocked getting there shot with the big boys! Personally I've a ways to go but many really good players on Web have had top multiple top 10s and missed out by a shot or 2 but if it was mandatory PGA & Euro would be full / fuller and be having better more competitive comps which is what I'm sure everyone wants. It in turn would lower the cut-line in web letting more lads onto a pro tour and have a so forth so on. Lowenberger might be on to something there!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 10:31:58 GMT -5
Bob, How about a rule where exemptions are mandatory but late into the season, say end of July, exemptions stop and you have to earn it by the money list/web finals? Would stop what happened to you. 3 wins and promoted should be out the window too so if you won 3 events in August you'd just stay on in web until season's end, which is like September, when you then get your card for finishing high in the money list. I think what Luke is saying is spot on if its coming down to the crunch end of the season they should be optional if your in the hunt for a high overall finish decline if your just floating around the middle go for it or not your choice! But this has been going on since week 1 and stuttering the flow up to PGA/Euro as I pointed out 6 of 8 of last weeks weren't used and One player has reneged on 5 exemptions so that alone is 11 potential PGA/Euro players that have been blocked getting there shot with the big boys! Personally I've a ways to go but many really good players on Web have had top multiple top 10s and missed out by a shot or 2 but if it was mandatory PGA & Euro would be full / fuller and be having better more competitive comps which is what I'm sure everyone wants. It in turn would lower the cut-line in web letting more lads onto a pro tour and have a so forth so on. Lowenberger might be on to something there! I started this discussion but I never dreamed of this the truth is my controller ruined my chances of making it i hit -15 and then hit like luke's buddy said garbage rounds of -1 -3 and -5 now i have turned to playstation controllers and like it or not i hold the steam record of -16 and if I shoot lower than -12 i will be reallyt disapointed but ok i am a little liquired up take that as an excuse usually i would play saturday morning but seing as this is watcher championship i will respect that and not post scores until deadline i will become a watcher and a lurker
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Post by marino313131 on Jan 12, 2016 10:37:16 GMT -5
I don't think the, "choice" crowd has a leg to stand on. If the exemption is mandatory then all that is guaranteed is they have to move up for ONE week. If you want to be a sandbagger and not make the cut then you still have that option but it allows for at least one week where someone who does want to advance has a better chance. The main issue for me with the guys who want to artificially compete at a lower level to improve their results is it effects EVERYONE else. Not fair or cool IMO
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 10:39:39 GMT -5
I really hope youre not refering to me
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Post by marino313131 on Jan 12, 2016 10:47:56 GMT -5
I really hope youre not refering to me My feelings on this topic are for everyone not a single individual mvs85. Everyone gets to choice how they approach this tour. I just believe the group good should rise above the desires of an individual to improve their performance and standings. The only legit argument for not taking an exception IMO is the end of year aspect being discussed. The main reason this topic angered me was because it came up week one of the season and people were already committed to not advancing so they could win the Web. I found that pathetic and still do.
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Post by boomboom on Jan 12, 2016 11:39:54 GMT -5
I see the reasoning behind this suggestion. I received I think 4 excemptions late last season, but because of the fed-ex playoffs using them would of been useless as even if I won I would of not earned a card. However I think that if the excemption provides the opportunity to gain a card it should be mandatory to use it. To stay in the lower tour with the skills of a higher tour is not fair.
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Post by Timbr0_T on Jan 12, 2016 12:01:46 GMT -5
I think the exemption should be mandatory but it should be harder to get your PGA card with the exemption. Top 30, or top exempt player maybe?
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Post by boomboom on Jan 12, 2016 12:21:45 GMT -5
The highest firm setting is borderline unplayable but some courses can pull it off with good use off slopes and contouring (Royal Lytham and a couple of others on the european tour this season. However some courses have slopes which don't work with firmer settings, this weeks course on the European Tour being the biggest culprit that I've played on. I quit half way through my second round as you couldn't hold some of the greens no matter what you did. Either HB need to lower the highest firm setting to something between medium and firm or courses that can't handle firm settings need to be dropped to medium in my opinion. As for exemptions, I believe they should be mandatory and maybe once we get to July/August they won't be available as the fight for the money list gets into full throttle. True dat. However I can speak from experience, you are asked to make the course suit the tour. For PGA and Euro you are asked to make it difficult. I can speak from experience that these guys are good. Really good. I think even the best designers here get surprised by what happens to their courses when they try for difficult with easy conditions. I made a versions of Horned Viper and Glen Abbey that I thought would be almost impossible and they were smoked inside the hour. The second you provide easy access to anywhere near the pin, these guys are on it like stink on sh%$. Even if HBS comes out with the desired slider to lower the firmness, all it does is make just that much harder to make a difficult course. There are obvious ways to make a difficult course, but courses tend to require the use of fairways. Then there is the use of fairways that are really hard to hit. But if you are like me and like to make accessible fairways, then making a difficult course is nearly impossible. You have to remove access to the pin if players are anywhere in the fairway from 200 yards out. The best present option, IMHO, and there are only a few, is give access to the fairway and difficult access to the pin, then the putt has to be hard as well. So I can see designers reasons for just taking a few holes and saying screw you take par when they are providing you with accessible fairways and many holes with access to the pin. I read a designer yesterday speaking of making a course with no fairways. I thought, yeah it has come to that hasn't it. I'm just trying to say, that designers struggle with making the courses difficult. It's a fine line, very fine line. Cannuck with Humbolt I'm sure was shocked when I came along and inside the hour shot -15. But again, if you give players access to the fairway and the pin, they are going to light it up. You can slope the pin, they are just going to aim further out and drain it. You can go Firm and fast, they are just going to dial in the landing zone. It's really hard to make a hard course is all I'm saying, make it even easier with easier conditions then I have no idea of how to make a course difficult and keep it fair. I'm beginning to think there is no such thing, fair and difficult for all the players. I really think the answer lies in HBS, they need make it harder to hit straight, increase the difficulty of the short game, scrap the shot shaper box, then courses can be reasonable firmness with access to the fairways and pins IMHO.
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