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Post by misternic on Nov 13, 2015 12:06:08 GMT -5
I had the same situation. It is a drivable par four, and that is one of the things you have to consider. I found it annoying but also a intriguing stategy quirk
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Post by ProjectM4yhem23 on Nov 13, 2015 12:09:44 GMT -5
maybe in the future the Rangers (better yet the designer of the course!) can alert the Admins of greens like this so ground rules for that specific course can be made pre tourney....Ex on 10 green at Briarbanks if you are more than 69 feet (however the math works) from the pin on the bottom tier you can chip....on most courses this won't be needed so that would make things "easier" than a blanket ruling.....still a pain I know.
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Post by ProjectM4yhem23 on Nov 13, 2015 12:15:48 GMT -5
I had the same situation. It is a drivable par four, and that is one of the things you have to consider. I found it annoying but also a intriguing stategy quirk Yes totally my fault....I was in a groove and didn't preview shot (reverse TST..... why doesn't the Y button work???)...still a situation worth discussing
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 13, 2015 12:39:55 GMT -5
It really sucks that when you are on the green you have to pretty much hit off the green or play it as an 'unplayable' lie because you know the ball will not reach the hole. Also as you said, many times that ball will roll right back down to your feet so you have basically wasted a shot with the attempt when you were already fairly certain you couldn't make it to the hole. I hope there is some change on this.
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Post by blackaces13 on Nov 13, 2015 13:00:57 GMT -5
Decided to finish up my last two rounds after getting back from the bar last night. BAD IDEA! Also seemingly impossible to resist. I may never learn.
-40 total. No bueno.
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Post by coruler2 on Nov 13, 2015 13:54:00 GMT -5
Sorry to play the jerk in the thread, but the green on the 10th was known ahead of time to pose this issue and it's a real penalty for a poor shot. Practice rounds, using the camera to look at the green, formulating a strategy instead of pounding away a shot would all have prevented those who were left with a 150ftr. I don't think the blame falls on the designer, Rangers, or course selectors...the blame should clearly be on the player. Today's society loves to play the victim role, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions (or lack thereof).
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Post by blackaces13 on Nov 13, 2015 14:00:20 GMT -5
I didn't notice this issue in this tournament, but I think in general it is silly to be penalized for hitting a green when compared to a player who missed the green. Yes, you could avoid the spot with knowledge, strategy, and execution, but it still makes no sense for guy who hits the ball on the green to be at a major disadvantage to a player who misses the green by 50 yards, and even less sense to be at a disadvantage to guy who missed the same green by 2 inches, right next to the ball of the guy on the green whose position is now untenable.
I don't think it's unreasonable at all to want courses where you can reach the hole from anywhere on the green with a putter.
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Post by ProjectM4yhem23 on Nov 13, 2015 14:22:47 GMT -5
Sorry to play the jerk in the thread, but the green on the 10th was known ahead of time to pose this issue and it's a real penalty for a poor shot. Practice rounds, using the camera to look at the green, formulating a strategy instead of pounding away a shot would all have prevented those who were left with a 150ftr. I don't think the blame falls on the designer, Rangers, or course selectors...the blame should clearly be on the player. Today's society loves to play the victim role, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions (or lack thereof). No victim here...Clearly stated in my posts that it was MY error. Doyley said they would look into possible solutions to the issue so I was offering possible solutions....Ranger and Designer help/course ground rules so there doesn't need to be a blanket rule that would be a nightmare to enforce...Today's society loves to rush to judge instead of collecting the facts before they run their mouth.
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 13, 2015 14:44:43 GMT -5
Finished my final two rounds. I'm very happy with this week. For the first time in 3 months or so I had four rounds that were solid and consistent.
I have to admit I was a bit torn as I never really considered the fact I would be in contention, but apparently I was, so I was a little irked at myself for hitting the green on #10 in the third round and having it stop on the top tier. I tried a silly putt to go up a hill and redirect the ball down to the flag only to leave the ball still on the top tier. Birdie opportunity lost there. Then I tried the cut the corner on the par 5 #11 and only made par there. Aside from that I missed 4 putts in 4 rounds I feel I should have made, but like Doyley, I made 3 or 4 putts I really never thought I would make so they even out.
In the end final scores: Round 1 (-13) Round 2 (-14) Round 3 (=13) Round 4 (=13) Total -53
I think this is good enough for top 5, something I haven't done since August. It feels good. I can only hope to continue it.
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Post by boomboom on Nov 13, 2015 18:25:18 GMT -5
Sorry to play the jerk in the thread, but the green on the 10th was known ahead of time to pose this issue and it's a real penalty for a poor shot. Practice rounds, using the camera to look at the green, formulating a strategy instead of pounding away a shot would all have prevented those who were left with a 150ftr. I don't think the blame falls on the designer, Rangers, or course selectors...the blame should clearly be on the player. Today's society loves to play the victim role, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions (or lack thereof). I know exactly the round and the pin. I absolutely played to miss to the green short and take the birdie. Easy as pie to see not only after playing the hole a few times, but hitting the scout cam, that pin was going to be crazy to go for, or attempt to go anywhere near the green in 1. Quite frankly, don't mean to sound like an arsehole, but 1. its a risk reward for a reason, 2. I don't see any need to start changing or removing these types of shots and risks from any course in the future. To be perfectly honest, more courses should have these types of holes. There is no issue, so no solution needed.
If someone gets in that position and has to turn around and putt off the green, so be it.
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 13, 2015 18:37:37 GMT -5
Sorry to play the jerk in the thread, but the green on the 10th was known ahead of time to pose this issue and it's a real penalty for a poor shot. Practice rounds, using the camera to look at the green, formulating a strategy instead of pounding away a shot would all have prevented those who were left with a 150ftr. I don't think the blame falls on the designer, Rangers, or course selectors...the blame should clearly be on the player. Today's society loves to play the victim role, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions (or lack thereof). I know exactly the round and the pin. I absolutely played to miss to the green short and take the birdie. Easy as pie to see not only after playing the hole a few times, but hitting the scout cam, that pin was going to be crazy to go for, or attempt to go anywhere near the green in 1. Quite frankly, don't mean to sound like an arsehole, but 1. its a risk reward for a reason, 2. I don't see any need to start changing or removing these types of shots and risks from any course in the future. To be perfectly honest, more courses should have these types of holes. There is no issue, so no solution needed.
If someone gets in that position and has to turn around and putt off the green, so be it.
I agree with you 100% but what happens when it isn't a risk/reward thing. It is a par four, just with a pin on a lower tier and the person ends up short but barely on. My point is at what point does it become (or does it) unfair that you cannot reach the hole with a putt while on the green? Just seems silly that the rules of golf has a solution for situations like this, like you see in links golf in places like Scotland, HB has a solution by allowing other clubs on the green but TGCTours, because someone early on in the first season was using pitching and flopping to avoid break can't allow the same solution. Honestly I think the tour has grown and matured as well as the players and that we should allow it in instances like this and if there is an issue, let it be a one off that the marshals can address instead of penalizing everyone. Put the owness on the player, if they are going to chip or flop up in this situation, best take a video to defend your reason. So many things that could be done rather than a draconian, across the board rule.
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Post by boomboom on Nov 13, 2015 22:41:54 GMT -5
Lets be clear though, you can putt, it will take 3 putts, but the choice to putt is still there. I get you cant make the hill with the first putt and it comes back down, but you can aim for the bottom of it and go up the hill from that point. There has never been an 80 foot hill. Its not law you must be able to 2 putt everything. No such thing as unfair when everyone must do it. What's unfair is the person purposely and successfully avoiding the situation gains no benefit, that's unfair. Whats unfair is the person putting from 40 feet must putt and the other person gets to flop over all the break from 80 feet, that's also unfair.
The current rule is a good rule, it's clear, it's concise, not open for interpretation or situation oriented requiring a bar whereby everybody will have a different interpretation of when it's ok and when its not..
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 13, 2015 23:15:11 GMT -5
Lets be clear though, you can putt, it will take 3 putts, but the choice to putt is still there. I get you cant make the hill with the first putt and it comes back down, but you can aim for the bottom of it and go up the hill from that point. There has never been an 80 foot hill. Its not law you must be able to 2 putt everything. No such thing as unfair when everyone must do it. What's unfair is the person purposely and successfully avoiding the situation gains no benefit, that's unfair. Whats unfair is the person putting from 40 feet must putt and the other person gets to flop over all the break from 80 feet, that's also unfair.
The current rule is a good rule, it's clear, it's concise, not open for interpretation or situation oriented requiring a bar whereby everybody will have a different interpretation of when it's ok and when its not.. On this particular hole, you might be right you can putt to the bottom of the hill, but that isn't always an option. Brionne and I have both when playing various courses, including the one we played for the Ryder Cup #18 had a hole that you could not get up that big hill, we each maxed out our shots trying different things. You say there is no rule that says you have to have a 2 putt...no there isn't, but there IS a rule that says, "You can use any club for any shot." I fully understand your issue with people using a flop or chip to avoid break and that is a separate issue from the one that is being discussed here. To me if the tour is going to allow holes like these to be submitted, approved and played in tournament play (the solution is simple move the hole in most cases), then the player should not be penalized if they can't get up a hill with a max putter. What is even worse is most players will give it a shot one time and waste a stroke that way, why ? The rule states you have to use a putter in that situation so you might as well give it a shot. This isn't like hitting into the rough, behind a rock or into trees where you SHOULD be penalized or have to make a punch shot to get out of trouble, this is the green, the dancing floor. This is a rule that goes to show the unintended consequences. In order to stop a few folks from doing something that was perfectly legal but viewed as "bad form" (and i'm in agreement with that), the rule created issues like these. You want a simple rule? If you are over 70, 80, 90 feet you can use another club. It is easy to check if necessary. I also fully understand the other reason the rule was put into place was that the admin didn't want the hassle of having to check every 'violation', but as I stated before, we have come a full season and this issue still is an issue. I would like to think that reasonable players, like yourself, would accept that a person in this situation shouldn't be penalized because there is no physical way to get the ball to the hole. No professional player would ever say, "oh I can't putt this to the hole, I'll putt to the bottom of the hill and THEN I'll get it up that hill." Hell no, they'd pull out another club. I don't think it is unreasonable and i'd like to think the players won't abuse it. So being a person who isn't just a complainer and likes to offer a solution i suggest the following addendum. "If a player feels like they are in a situation where a maximum strength putt won't make it up a hill. (Note I'm not saying get it to the hole) and the result would be the ball coming back down to the area where they are putting, they may use another club. They must also submit to the forum that they have done so, so it may be checked by a TD or Marshal." If they are deemed that a putt could have made the hill, then they are DQ'd and unable to play the next week. Multiple violations, blah blah. If they don't submit it, then blah blah even worse penalty. Bottom line you probably aren't going to get many people doing this and those that do will probably have tried it at least once to make sure they couldn't. Either way I don't believe it will be a huge number of folks doing this in a season, especially if the rangers, reviewers and approvers are doing their job. Finally put it in as a test rule. If it works out great, if it becomes a major issue with abuse and such, review it. Either way give it a shot at least.
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Post by boomboom on Nov 13, 2015 23:52:40 GMT -5
Lets be clear though, you can putt, it will take 3 putts, but the choice to putt is still there. I get you cant make the hill with the first putt and it comes back down, but you can aim for the bottom of it and go up the hill from that point. There has never been an 80 foot hill. Its not law you must be able to 2 putt everything. No such thing as unfair when everyone must do it. What's unfair is the person purposely and successfully avoiding the situation gains no benefit, that's unfair. Whats unfair is the person putting from 40 feet must putt and the other person gets to flop over all the break from 80 feet, that's also unfair.
The current rule is a good rule, it's clear, it's concise, not open for interpretation or situation oriented requiring a bar whereby everybody will have a different interpretation of when it's ok and when its not.. Bottom line you probably aren't going to get many people doing this and those that do will probably have tried it at least once to make sure they couldn't. Either way I don't believe it will be a huge number of folks doing this in a season, especially if the rangers, reviewers and approvers are doing their job. Finally put it in as a test rule. If it works out great, if it becomes a major issue with abuse and such, review it. Either way give it a shot at least. One thing I have is an open mind always, seldom do I ever jump to concrete decisions. Having read what you stated I offer up the following. If the player attempts the putt and it rolls back down to their near vicinity of the original putt, they then know for certain it is not able to make the hill, they then can only then feel free to use whatever club they wish for their next shot.
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Post by Doyley on Nov 14, 2015 0:33:06 GMT -5
tgctours.proboards.com/post/76594/threadAdmin has discussed recent events with regards to possibly allowing chipping on the green on distances further than the putter could putt. We decided not to change the rule and that it will remain as is. Onus is on the player to assess the risk/reward of the approach shot.
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