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Post by ezzinomilonga on Oct 12, 2019 22:22:23 GMT -5
Again, the problem is not if or when we play on very fast, or very firm, or with high wind. I never said that a specific single setup is or can be a problem. Don't put words in my mouth I never said. And, just to be clear, about your previous quote about the easier courses we'll play in the next weeks, personally I don't think we need easier courses. We need just to not play every week at least 3 rounds as if we should be PGA player RIGHT NOW, just cause the totality of the difficulties, we don't need an easier course or to avoid a single setup. As a totally side note, I prefer firm and fast conditions, I don't like slower or softer greens. Just habits. I wish simply that when someone prepares a course for a determinate setup, that setup would be tested. With both clubs. I understand that default can sound more realistic (but is just an opinion, cause a good level players knows pretty well and hours before to play, what wind it will be, more o less, but let it go). What I tried to said about the default wind is that id you who prepare the setup for a round don't know the strength of the wind when you want to use very firm surfaces, how you can judge if is it fair or if is too much? Is more clear now? Default wind should be avoided with tougher conditions cause can create an hell.
About the conditions used on these 4 tournaments, if needed i'll post all the setups and the wind used on the 4 tournaments I played (I missed the first, sadly). And if you want, I'll report also every hole I saw that was almost unplayable with pro clubs not cause the course was hard, but cause the totality of the conditions used on that course. Then we can easily see if things has been pushed a bit too far, a bit too often or if my complaints are useless and exaggerated as you think.
About this week course, just to say, now i miss just 4th round. So now I can say we played 2 rounds in high wind, plus one round that was setted as medium, but it was high again on 14 holes and medium just on 4 holes..plus one round in which we played with very firm surfaces and we started with really high wind and ended with low wind, with a medium high wind for the stretch of harder holes. All this on a course that is already hard.
And about firmness..I ask you again. Have you ever played a single round with pro clubs on very firm fairways and greens on these courses we played? It seems you don't. The fact that is possible to use a very firm surface, don't means that we MUST use it, if the course already offers a proper challenge. Have you see the fairways on this course? Have you see how much rolls the ball with pro clubs on these fairways when you have the wind on your back? And have you see how many times, with this kind of wind, a kick received by the ball almost at the center of the very firm fairways pushes the ball out in rough just cause fairways are ALREADY tight and rolling? No talking about what happens on greens if the pin don't leaves some space and you MUST use a long iron for the approach. And a lot of those pins don't leaves that space. Ia fine to use very firm conditions, but what the point to use them on a tough course with wind already well blowing?
Oh..and i totally agree that cc should prepare players to became Pro. Last year it was the same, I suppose, but every tournament was well balanced on setup with no need to have this continuous setup pushed always in such a way that in a great number of holes the luck counts more than the idea. With the concept of risk and reward completely disappeared. I saw that you play on PGA tour. And we are playing pro tour too, it seems. But your absolutely correct thought about the need to prepare players to be a Pro, don't takes in count the fact that the majority of cc players ARE not good and/or experienced enough to face these conditions every week on almost every round without lose the pleasure to play, instead to improve. We should at least alternate weeks harder and a bit easier. We don't need 52 weeks of this to improve. We need to enjoy the game, at this level, on first instance. Then the best players always will find a way to score better.
Again..i don't want rounds easier. I wish just more balanced conditions..looking, as a first thing, on what is the actual difficulty of a course. And deciding accordingly. Not simply cause is possible to use that setup.
About the numbers..are you serious? Last week I was gaining a promo mark (1 stroke short) with more or less the same score I had last season at Royal Birkdale. Now I could gain a promo mark with a -32. (I'm -29 after 3 rounds). On Raynor Ridge it was less penalizing only cause the architecture of the course worked better than the others with the tough conditions. About Geiranger is better that I don't talk directly. Is simply absurd to deny that these 4 tournaments has been played on extremely tough conditions. And at least 3-4 rounds in conditions simply exaggerated.
I'd you don't think so, good for you. And go on. I don't care, personally, cause i'll continue to score more or less good in every case. In almost every tournament. Cause is not a problem a score for me. Is just about to have fun and opportunity. And a different idea of what cc pro should be, considering the majority of field we have.
But If you're sure the majority of players are happy (or the majority of the STRONG players?), you must be right for sure. I can be mad, but i don't think medium players are so full of joy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2019 23:16:35 GMT -5
Ezzino, I play pro clubs, but I’ve never had any holes in these events that are “unplayable,” as you say. Do you have examples?
I see your scores are very good, and you say this isn’t about difficulty, but I’m not sure what the goal of your posts about this is?
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Post by catcherman22 on Oct 12, 2019 23:27:32 GMT -5
Again, the problem is not if or when we play on very fast, or very firm, or with high wind. I never said that a specific single setup is or can be a problem. Don't put words in my mouth I never said. And, just to be clear, about your previous quote about the easier courses we'll play in the next weeks, personally I don't think we need easier courses. We need just to not play every week at least 3 rounds as if we should be PGA player RIGHT NOW, just cause the totality of the difficulties, we don't need an easier course or to avoid a single setup. As a totally side note, I prefer firm and fast conditions, I don't like slower or softer greens. Just habits. I wish simply that when someone prepares a course for a determinate setup, that setup would be tested. With both clubs. I understand that default can sound more realistic (but is just an opinion, cause a good level players knows pretty well and hours before to play, what wind it will be, more o less, but let it go). What I tried to said about the default wind is that id you who prepare the setup for a round don't know the strength of the wind when you want to use very firm surfaces, how you can judge if is it fair or if is too much? Is more clear now? Default wind should be avoided with tougher conditions cause can create an hell. About the conditions used on these 4 tournaments, if needed i'll post all the setups and the wind used on the 4 tournaments I played (I missed the first, sadly). And if you want, I'll report also every hole I saw that was almost unplayable with pro clubs not cause the course was hard, but cause the totality of the conditions used on that course. Then we can easily see if things has been pushed a bit too far, a bit too often or if my complaints are useless and exaggerated as you think. About this week course, just to say, now i miss just 4th round. So now I can say we played 2 rounds in high wind, plus one round that was setted as medium, but it was high again on 14 holes and medium just on 4 holes..plus one round in which we played with very firm surfaces and we started with really high wind and ended with low wind, with a medium high wind for the stretch of harder holes. All this on a course that is already hard. And about firmness..I ask you again. Have you ever played a single round with pro clubs on very firm fairways and greens on these courses we played? It seems you don't. The fact that is possible to use a very firm surface, don't means that we MUST use it, if the course already offers a proper challenge. Have you see the fairways on this course? Have you see how much rolls the ball with pro clubs on these fairways when you have the wind on your back? And have you see how many times, with this kind of wind, a kick received by the ball almost at the center of the very firm fairways pushes the ball out in rough just cause fairways are ALREADY tight and rolling? No talking about what happens on greens if the pin don't leaves some space and you MUST use a long iron for the approach. And a lot of those pins don't leaves that space. Ia fine to use very firm conditions, but what the point to use them on a tough course with wind already well blowing? Oh..and i totally agree that cc should prepare players to became Pro. Last year it was the same, I suppose, but every tournament was well balanced on setup with no need to have this continuous setup pushed always in such a way that in a great number of holes the luck counts more than the idea. With the concept of risk and reward completely disappeared. I saw that you play on PGA tour. And we are playing pro tour too, it seems. But your absolutely correct thought about the need to prepare players to be a Pro, don't takes in count the fact that the majority of cc players ARE not good and/or experienced enough to face these conditions every week on almost every round without lose the pleasure to play, instead to improve. We should at least alternate weeks harder and a bit easier. We don't need 52 weeks of this to improve. We need to enjoy the game, at this level, on first instance. Then the best players always will find a way to score better. Again..i don't want rounds easier. I wish just more balanced conditions..looking, as a first thing, on what is the actual difficulty of a course. And deciding accordingly. Not simply cause is possible to use that setup. About the numbers..are you serious? Last week I was gaining a promo mark (1 stroke short) with more or less the same score I had last season at Royal Birkdale. Now I could gain a promo mark with a -32. (I'm -29 after 3 rounds). On Raynor Ridge it was less penalizing only cause the architecture of the course worked better than the others with the tough conditions. About Geiranger is better that I don't talk directly. Is simply absurd to deny that these 4 tournaments has been played on extremely tough conditions. And at least 3-4 rounds in conditions simply exaggerated. I'd you don't think so, good for you. And go on. I don't care, personally, cause i'll continue to score more or less good in every case. In almost every tournament. Cause is not a problem a score for me. Is just about to have fun and opportunity. And a different idea of what cc pro should be, considering the majority of field we have. But If you're sure the majority of players are happy (or the majority of the STRONG players?), you must be right for sure. I can be mad, but i don't think medium players are so full of joy. WInd: Medium Medium High High Default High Medium Medium Default High Medium Low Default High Medium Low High Default Medium High Green Firm: Very Firm Firm Very Firm Very Firm Very Firm Moderate Moderate Firm Moderate Default Firm Very Firm Firm Default Moderate Very Firm Default Very Firm Moderate Default Terrain Firm: Very Firm Soft Very Firm Very Firm Very Firm Default Default Firm Moderate Default Very Firm Firm Firm Default Moderate Default Default Very Firm Moderate Default that's the conditions for the first 5 tournaments.This is the first week you've had multiple high winds since week 1.Your very firm rounds on weeks 3 and 4 both had low winds. Yes, this week you got unlucky in that you had higherish default winds with very firm.. it happens. I'd love (honestly.. not sarcastically like I am afraid this comes across) to hear what conditions you think would have been appropriate for these tours. Blackflag was used on the KFT week 3... here's the conditions they had: Default High Very High Medium Default Default Very Firm Very Firm Default Default Very Firm Very Firm The scores on those conditions are roughly the same, slightly better, as to be expected with master clubs only. Although he did run the last two rounds at 187 greens as well as the vf vf… so it played quite a bit harder than what you guys faced, especially round 3 with very high winds. 28th place on KFT and 29th place on CCB are exactly the same score. Last year, the 30th place player on CC B had a scoring average of 64.5. This year it's 65.2. 100th ranked player was 66.4, now its 67.3. Like I said.. roughly a shot higher, with only 5 tournaments played (and some of those averages aren't for 5 rounds. You can't compare promo marks since the system is different than it was last year. I would also argue that Pacific Spirit (in my opinion the hardest week of the first 5) influenced these numbers a bit. I expect them to drop over the next 5 weeks.
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Post by cephyn on Oct 13, 2019 8:40:14 GMT -5
Erm, not my favorite course this week. Something about the hole designs just grated on me. Maybe it will appeal to others more. Started out a bit rough with a -3, but then put up some good scores following that pokey first round. All in all, slid into the clubhouse with a -33. Conditions are ripe for scoring and I expect that might only be a T20ish finish - the course is very attackable in rounds 3 and 4. I wouldn't be suprised to see a winning score nearing or surpassing -40. I missed 3 or 4 easy easy putts in round 3, really stupid easy putts.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Oct 13, 2019 9:29:55 GMT -5
I have not preferred conditions. It depends by the course. I'm not so sure that a setup suggested by the designer and not properly verified for the CC level (how it works on every condition, if some pin in some condition can be unfair etc etc) is the right line to follow, cause a designer can't see if the architecture of his course has some serious flaw (if he could see the flaws, they would be corrected before the release, I suppose) and cause often a designer wants to have not too low scores on his course. So, sorry, but I'll continue to think that conditions should be well verified first. For both clubs. No counting that we use only fictional courses on CC and I can go crazy to understand why (last year 4 or 5 (don't remember now) real courses on 42 weeks. This year no one on 9 or 10. And we have 560 real courses. Deleting the not well designed and those with some flaw, i think at list 150 would be fine (if not great) for the Tour. But it seems those designers don't deserves to be praised as who does fictional courses. Ok. And i still can't also understand why to use a course (good, but not SO freaking good to deserve two spots on the same season) on two flights when we have hundreds of courses that will stay unpicked.
Anyway..i already asked about all these things..and this discussion..no..every discussion, seems to be useless. As I said, for me is a very relative problem. I can score well everywhere, if I play well enough. And this is obviously just a senseless crusade. Especially if I'm the only one who see something wrong. Also, it seems you can't be wrong. Good for you. Is a great luck.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 10:18:52 GMT -5
Now wait a minute... nobody said the schedulers can’t be wrong, but based on your posts, they also can’t be right. From what I’ve seen here, you made some claims based on your experience on the CC circuit, and Catcherman22 spent the time to respond with factual data to explain his position. But it seems that since it doesn’t agree with your idea, then you say conversation is pointless. It’s totally fine that you have thoughts on this subject, but so do other people too, and they might not always align with your thoughts. That’s just how dialogue works. I think you say some things I agree with, but if I have to agree with all of what you say to make this conversation meet your objectives, then we’re not going to get very far.
As for me personally, I read your whole posts and thought about them, and I read Dan’s responses and thought about them, and then I gave my opinion of CC-Pro so far this year. It happens that in this conversation I don’t agree with you, but that doesn’t mean I will never agree with you on things.
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Post by cephyn on Oct 13, 2019 10:32:55 GMT -5
for what it's worth, i don't care much for RCRs on tour - 99% of the time I don't think they play well in-game.
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Post by catcherman22 on Oct 13, 2019 10:38:42 GMT -5
for what it's worth, i don't care much for RCRs on tour - 99% of the time I don't think they play well in-game. Which is why they don’t get selected much outside of PGA/Euro
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 10:53:45 GMT -5
for what it's worth, i don't care much for RCRs on tour - 99% of the time I don't think they play well in-game. I have to agree with this as well. There are plenty of RCR societies and sim tours available that look exclusively for real courses, so there are opportunities to play them. However, I really appreciate that the schedulers of TGC Tours give opportunities to fictional designers because it opens up the realm of "video game golf" much broader IMO. I've played the St. Andrews, Sawgrass, and Oakmont courses of the world all too much, I don't need more of that.
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Post by TimB on Oct 13, 2019 11:33:39 GMT -5
HI everyone.
I've heard through the rumor mill that I'm being demoted from from CCA to here.
Drank a little too much last week and got a little mouthy in the clubhouse apparently along with an unfortunate (and erotic) incident with a Llama. So those snobs in CCA petitioned TGCTours to have me removed from their precious little Llama loving club.
F...em
Round report.
Eagle 1'st hole on 1'st round.
Bogey 2'nd.
Then the par 5. I've just come back to this game after a 5 month hiatus. Can't seem to get my swing in order. My line is always to the right of the blue. Not exact same shape but its never center. Causing me to fade/slice badly. Got into major trouble here because of that.
Thought i could whack my way out of it but had to take an unplayable...which puts me right back in the same spot. Had to turn around (should have done this 1'st, my fault) and play back towards the tee.
Hit shot limit on a par 5.
I wound up rage quitting around the 15'th hole on round 4.
Not sure how long I'm going to be in CCB anyway. I don't play this game enough and am really struggling with Magnolia Clubs. (very fasts, today lots of very slows and many 90% power shots) May step down to Beginner Tour. I hear they don't mind a little Llama action there.
Behold
Now off to go play Destiny 2 and rage out on some NPC's
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Post by cephyn on Oct 13, 2019 11:35:11 GMT -5
Oof yeah, if you don't take an unplayable immediately, it won't work.
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Post by TimB on Oct 13, 2019 11:38:05 GMT -5
Oof yeah, if you don't take an unplayable immediately, it won't work. Really? After 5 years of playing TGC I never knew that. Never seemed to get in many situations where I had to even consider an unplayable.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 12:13:36 GMT -5
Different week same first round result.
Playing catch up sitting at +2 through the majority of the front 9.
Finished round one at -2
Decided okay well something is wrong with my game the last two weeks so I figure let me just end the misery now and get it over with.
Started round two at +3 through 4. I rallied to finish at -10.
Carried over to the next round with a -11 third round.
I'm going to wait and see where I need to be when I play the final round later this week.
I'm definitely going through something mentally, thinking too much telling myself not to do this and that on each hole.
I need to just play and that showed in rounds two and three.
I'll take that -23 through three rounds
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Oct 13, 2019 14:11:37 GMT -5
Ezzino, I play pro clubs, but I’ve never had any holes in these events that are “unplayable,” as you say. Do you have examples? I see your scores are very good, and you say this isn’t about difficulty, but I’m not sure what the goal of your posts about this is? The goal, Victor, please trust me, was simply to try to highlight the fact that in a field of 650 players (more or less) as the field of CC-Pro is, things shouldn't be built and shaped CONSTANTLY on the skills of the stronger players (like us, I would say humbly, meaning simply all those players who knows more or less how to read wind, surfaces..everything, in short). While I played these tournaments I often was thinking "sh!t..if this was really so tough for me, how tough can be for someone less skilled or experienced than me?" and looking how many guys on the 4 flights ends tournament constantly around and worst the -20, that is a really high score, for me, I think that a good number of guys, possibly full of desire to improve and to compete, playing every week and almost every round on these conditions, before than be pushed to improve, probably they will be simply demotivated. No one like to lose constantly..and constantly feeling that things are just too much hard for him. Again..my point is simply that CC-Pro should be more inclusive. We already have three Pro tour for the best players. Who of us is (or thinks to be) strong enough to reach them..needs simply to score well enough to reach these tours. And then he will play with the proper difficulty level every week. But we can't pretend to play in CC as if it was the Euro Tour just to satisfy our need to have a challenge. Not on every week. Cause this is just selfish. And don't take any count or respect of the less skilled players. So my point is that to offer a proper challenge to 150 CC-Pro players (maybe), we risk to ruin (and probably we are doing it, right now) the experience of the majority of us. A HUGE majority. I honestly can't understand why this thought sounds so absurd. And again, I don't want a completely easier tour, or to have some setup never used. At all. No counting the fact that, selfishly speaking, I also noticed months ago that for me is harder to score better than others with easy conditions. Is easier that i score better the others when conditions are generally harder on the whole tournament..so I personally could even don't complain at all, but I play in a field of 650 players. Is not my tour. And to talk less theorically, i wish simply to see again what we had last year (at least from April when I joined the tour,I mean. I don't know how it was before). Well balanced rounds. And sometimes a very tough tournament. I think at this level this should be the right deal. To try to offer a fair challenge even for the less talented players we have. At least sometimes. I also decided to avoid to describe in details the holes in which the mix of conditions, pin positions and not good enough architecture caused weird situations penalizing also safe shots with not apparent reason, cause I see this could simply keep this discussion worst. A lot worst. And honestly..cause is also correct that, as said before, if this is really a problem that nobody else see or feel, as it seems..is useless to continue to speak about it. I stay with my idea that with no need of revolutions, but just some little well aimed change, we could have a tour still better of what it already is. But is needed to debate, to improve. To share ideas. Until we think everything is perfect (when it is not perfect at all, and on various little things, some of them easily fixable) we will improve exactly nothing. But nobody will die, I know it. So..is fine, after all. Anyway..it seems I'll be promoted after all. I'm going to help the CC-A thread to increase the number of posts Has been a real pleasure to know all of you. I'm very happy of these weeks spent together. Good luck as always guys. For..everything. I'll switch to master clubs now..so I think that for some time I'll going to suffer as a damned and after this time..at least i will see if I can be competitive even on better level or is this my dimension, after all
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Oct 13, 2019 14:42:40 GMT -5
Ah..sorry again Victor, I have read only now your last post.
Honestly, to offer a list of conditions not relating them to the courses and the pins used on those courses..is not exactly this great answer to my point. It proves only that has been used various setups. But i never denied it..and I never said that the problem is that we play always with the same setups. Was not this the problem I wanted to point out.
And..if I prefer to quit the discussion, now, is not for his answers, but for the fact that even for all of you seems to be everything fine. Even the fact that conditions are not tested before the tournament, as it seems, seems to be totally fibe for all you, while for me I just absurd.
But what is the point if my wish to have a debate and to change something that for me is wrong, became just some kind of trolling? It would be just stupid. Probably I'm simply wrong. It can be. Easily. And I can accept it with no problems. Just this.
But..about RCRs..sorry if i disagree and if this could sounds arrogant, but I played almost 300 RCRs in these months, for the list. If not more. And I perfectly know that the majority of them plays easier..too easy, on this game. But I can guarantee that there are dozen of courses well made and that could offer a great challenge, especially on CC. A lot better than for PGA or Euro Tour. But I can be wrong even about this.
(also..even assuming that all the RCRs are easier..i still can't understand in any case who could die if we should ever play an easy course on CC Pro, that is the lowest pro grade of this tour, just to remember of what we are talking here, but ok).
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