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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 10:33:10 GMT -5
PGA as in TGCTours or in real life? As it is, the Tours is having a participation challenge. Some say it's the luster of the game wearing out (hasn't TGCTours been around for years though?), some say it's the courses, some say it's the fake high winds... Guess the debate will continue... either way, participation dropping is a bad thing imo. Real PGA
It's like anything new though...the luster eventually wears off.
Yep, I've just put in the numbers for the pro tours and there's been a slight drop off for all of them with a big drop across the board for Christmas week as expected - but interestingly PGA had the biggest bounce-back in participation after Christmas. You can't draw any specific conclusions (e.g. course choices) with such minor changes in participation that aren't down to typical diminishing returns in video game enjoyment levels imo - especially when you factor in HB chucking in completely unnecessary patches that ruin every edge and hope you had and fhsdjkfhskfjhsfksdhdfjks.
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Post by CuseHokie on Jan 8, 2019 10:50:39 GMT -5
Real PGA
It's like anything new though...the luster eventually wears off.
Yep, I've just put in the numbers for the pro tours and there's been a slight drop off for all of them with a big drop across the board for Christmas week as expected - but interestingly PGA had the biggest bounce-back in participation after Christmas. You can't draw any specific conclusions (e.g. course choices) with such minor changes in participation that aren't down to typical diminishing returns in video game enjoyment levels imo - especially when you factor in HB chucking in completely unnecessary patches that ruin every edge and hope you had and fhsdjkfhskfjhsfksdhdfjks. Great data. I'm not convinced bringing up "the next 25" solves it... unless you believe the next 25 are just as good as say Top 25-150 in today's PGA... but I think even within that range, there is sharp division. Be curious to track who gets demoted or if it'll just be a carousel of red marks and made cuts to clear them and thus more stagnation.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jan 8, 2019 10:57:54 GMT -5
My opinion is this a tough but fair test. If this course was that bad it wouldn't have been selected for the PGA. You're not telling me (with a straight face) that that specific pin is "a tough but fair test" are you Tim? Surely? Yes I am. I honestly don't think it is hard enough and that is the honest truth. There are shots that can get close. Evident by just one of the ghosts Mitch picked on the replay.
Chris Bird's Twin State was a great course as well a few weeks back for the minor PGA. Really wish Adam Hill would republish/tweak "The Ratel at Widow's Cross" or taste's McKee McGrodo Black Widow. Fabulous tests!
Edit: I hadn't played Round 2 yet but can guarantee it's fine.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Jan 8, 2019 11:17:59 GMT -5
I think PGA courses strive to do 2 things, neither of which is easy to pull off by itself, but are particularly difficult to do in tandem. I think good courses for this level should 1) challenge the best players in the game; and 2) provide enjoyment-value/fun. IMO, that second item can be done by setting up a course to reward things like proper interpretations of the shot elements (lie, wind, landing area, etc.), exceptional strategy/course management, correct shot choice when faced with multiple options, and of course putting, which includes reading and executing line and speed of a variety of types of putts (uphill, downhill, sidehill, crowned pin placements, bowled pins, "sidewinder" pins, etc.). Those are the only ways, and these are just things that were off the top of my head, but you get what I'm saying.
Now, in my very humble opinion, and with sincere respect for the designer and our trustworthy schedulers, this week's course fell flat on #2 above, and achieved #1 in ways which I felt served as a detriment to #2. There weren't necessarily a variety of shots to hit in terms of how to play your ball. It just seemed to me like a disproportionate amount of shots from medium-to-long distance which were "crowned pin, have to land it X yards short of the pin on that red slope to stop it from going down that other steep slope behind the pin, must swing as straight as humanly possible since 1 or 2 yds left or right sends the ball off the raised crown in a bad direction towards another steep slope, etc." types. Yes, there were certainly a few shots which required shot shaping, but it just felt like it was a lot of the same shots, regardless of fade/draw, since your goal once the ball landed was essentially the same as all the other shots...if that makes sense to anyone but me.
Having said all that, things that provide enjoyment or fun will obviously not be the same for everyone, so I wouldn't expect every person on tour to agree with my opinion, nor that of others. The saying "to each their own" holds true here, as there are clearly some who enjoy this type of setup, I just don't happen to be one of them - and that's fine, I hope, since it's just an opinion, not some absolute fact that everyone must agree with or they're idiots. Point is, while I disagree with having played this course for reasons listed above (and previously), it doesn't mean I'm right, and I'm cool with that provided it's not a weekly thing - and if worse comes to worse, and it is a weekly thing, this is just a video game, and we're all free to stop playing anytime it stops being fun.
/OpEd
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Post by fadgewacker on Jan 8, 2019 11:48:34 GMT -5
You're not telling me (with a straight face) that that specific pin is "a tough but fair test" are you Tim? Surely? Yes I am. I honestly don't think it is hard enough and that is the honest truth. There are shots that can get close. Evident by just one of the ghosts Mitch picked on the replay.
Chris Bird's Twin State was a great course as well a few weeks back for the minor PGA. Really wish Adam Hill would republish/tweak "The Ratel at Widow's Cross" or taste's McKee McGrodo Black Widow. Fabulous tests!
Edit: I hadn't played Round 2 yet but can guarantee it's fine.
The pin on 18 in R2 from my post, with the video, on the closing hole, a par 5, is "tough but fair"? Good for the game? You'll probably remember I share a very similar view to you on course difficulty from Twin State... Surprised that you'd consider that pin legit for a number of reasons to be truthful.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jan 8, 2019 11:58:51 GMT -5
Yes I am. I honestly don't think it is hard enough and that is the honest truth. There are shots that can get close. Evident by just one of the ghosts Mitch picked on the replay.
Chris Bird's Twin State was a great course as well a few weeks back for the minor PGA. Really wish Adam Hill would republish/tweak "The Ratel at Widow's Cross" or taste's McKee McGrodo Black Widow. Fabulous tests!
Edit: I hadn't played Round 2 yet but can guarantee it's fine.
The pin on 18 in R2 from my post, with the video, on the closing hole, a par 5, is "tough but fair"? Good for the game? You'll probably remember I share a very similar view to you on course difficulty from Twin State... Surprised that you'd consider that pin legit for a number of reasons to be truthful. You still had an eagle putt!
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Post by mde8965 on Jan 8, 2019 12:01:33 GMT -5
I haven’t played this weeks event yet. Practiced though. I like the course, trees, retaining walls and all. Just forces you to be smart instead of balls out on every hole. The greens, not crazy about the pins either like some of you. But, I’d rather play every week on greens like this instead of playing with 20+ mph winds in multiple rounds of an event (which has been normal lately). Not saying I want 5 and under all rounds. But 15 and under for at least 3 of the rounds. Never over 20. It’s probably just me but the super high winds take the bulk of the strategy and creativity away and I’m just trying to survive. Whenever I see winds that about fill the entire wind meter I want to stop playing. Like round 3 of this last weeks minor (Rio de Janero)
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Post by fadgewacker on Jan 8, 2019 12:03:25 GMT -5
The pin on 18 in R2 from my post, with the video, on the closing hole, a par 5, is "tough but fair"? Good for the game? You'll probably remember I share a very similar view to you on course difficulty from Twin State... Surprised that you'd consider that pin legit for a number of reasons to be truthful. You still had an eagle putt!
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Post by CuseHokie on Jan 8, 2019 12:17:03 GMT -5
Tim must be a huge disc golf fan. Tim one last question - for or against the World Tour? Just curious.
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Post by rob4590 on Jan 8, 2019 12:52:07 GMT -5
The designer is doing himself no favours by lurking round this thread, only liking posts from those liking his course, and refusing to address anyone who has criticisms of the design...
If he came on here and said 'Yeah guys - I deliberately tricked up the greens to make them as hard as possible. Yes - I deliberately sculpted everything to fall off the sides. Yes - I deliberately put the pins on the top of every mound to make it really hard to get close. Yes - I deliberately put trees in the play line to make you have to play away from some holes. Did I get it right? Maybe not - so sorry if some of you don't like it - and I will take your feedback into consideration next time.....'
He doesn't have to mean one single word of the last sentence - but he'd have done himself a lot of credit by saying something like that already.....but too late now - clearly he only wants people's praise - not criticism in order to improve his future designs...
Oh - and just for the record - Adam - you got yourself off to a really bad start by being so narcissistic that you named your course after yourself!
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jan 8, 2019 12:52:32 GMT -5
World Tour? Biggest mistake they could have made here. This website tries to mimic starting at the top the PGA TOUR, not a imaginary World Tour that doesn't exist.
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Post by CuseHokie on Jan 8, 2019 13:22:54 GMT -5
World Tour? Biggest mistake they could have made here. This website tries to mimic starting at the top the PGA TOUR, not a imaginary World Tour that doesn't exist. That's interesting. Based on your feedback on how this course isn't hard enough and (edit) plays "fair", it sounds like what you're for would further divide the PGA leaderboard in half... almost to a World Tour -esque setup... So I find it ironic how you felt that was a big mistake.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jan 8, 2019 13:36:55 GMT -5
World Tour? Biggest mistake they could have made here. This website tries to mimic starting at the top the PGA TOUR, not a imaginary World Tour that doesn't exist. That's interesting. Based on your feedback on how this course isn't hard enough and (edit) plays "fair", it sounds like what you're for would further divide the PGA leaderboard in half... almost to a World Tour -esque setup... So I find it ironic how you felt that was a big mistake. Top guys are scoring birds at a 2/3 clip. Seems if we can't surpass -50 it's a crying shame.
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Post by Dave on Jan 8, 2019 13:46:50 GMT -5
The designer is doing himself no favours by lurking round this thread, only liking posts from those liking his course, and refusing to address anyone who has criticisms of the design... If he came on here and said 'Yeah guys - I deliberately tricked up the greens to make them as hard as possible. Yes - I deliberately sculpted everything to fall off the sides. Yes - I deliberately put the pins on the top of every mound to make it really hard to get close. Yes - I deliberately put trees in the play line to make you have to play away from some holes. Did I get it right? Maybe not - so sorry if some of you don't like it - and I will take your feedback into consideration next time.....' He doesn't have to mean one single word of the last sentence - but he'd have done himself a lot of credit by saying something like that already.....but too late now - clearly he only wants people's praise - not criticism in order to improve his future designs... Oh - and just for the record - Adam - you got yourself off to a really bad start by being so narcissistic that you named your course after yourself! I alluded to this in my post but wasn’t quite so blunt about it, so kudos to you sir for going straight for the jugular 😂👍
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 13:47:56 GMT -5
World Tour? Biggest mistake they could have made here. This website tries to mimic starting at the top the PGA TOUR, not a imaginary World Tour that doesn't exist. That's interesting. Based on your feedback on how this course isn't hard enough and (edit) plays "fair", it sounds like what you're for would further divide the PGA leaderboard in half... almost to a World Tour -esque setup... So I find it ironic how you felt that was a big mistake. I find it interesting that Tim advocates for a PGA like setup as far as structure, but would rather have courses like The Ratel and the like that are hard as possible eschewing RCR types that are often labelled in the forums as "too boring" or "too easy".
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