mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Apr 11, 2018 19:25:07 GMT -5
Preface: Apologies in advance to the admins if this is the wrong spot for this but, given the discussions over at HB forums today this is something I wanted to get off my chest and, hopefully, will be cathartic and constructive for the design community.
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Why do you design?
It’s a simple, yet profound question. Why would a grown adult spend hours upon hours on end pouring his or her blood, sweat, tears, heart, soul -- you name it -- into a something for a virtual golf game?
It’s a profound question to contemplate, especially now. There are those within the design community who feel the tone of some fans of this game (and perhaps developer HB Studios) discounts our importance at best and completely disregards it at worst. All the talk of late has been about giving players and tournament organizers control over setting up courses we’ve spent hours laying out, sculpting, tweaking, playtesting, tweaking again, planting, beta testing and tweaking once more before we finally hit that “Publish” button.
There have been several in our community who have attempt to pointed out what we see as the faults in this logic, only to be brushed off as "egotistical," "butthurt," you name it. It’s enough to make some fairly question if they can/will/should continue designing in the future.
So, again, why do you design?
For me, it’s because I love it. It’s a hobby, a passion, perhaps a way to in some small sense feel what it might have been like to dabble in a different profession. It’s a release, a distraction from the stress of work, family, politics, life, etc. My virtual golf game has become, in essence, my actual golf game.
I could bore you with paragraphs of how I got here -- from doodling sketches of golf holes as a kid to buying numerous books on the topic to failed attempts at designing in other games (anybody remember Pro Stroke Golf?). Think I stumbled upon this game somewhere around late 2014 put I didn’t jump in until 2015 when TGC1 game out on disc for console. I bought my PS4 to play THIS game. Soon I was immersed in the designer.
At that time, I only designed for my own enjoyment. My first attempts were auto-gen crap -- spiced up auto-gen crap, but auto-gen crap all the same. Those, thankfully, never saw the light of day. I put out my first publish in early 2016 (Newbold Township). It was still crap, but at least you could tell it was polished crap (to this day it maybe has 30 plays). But shortly thereafter, HB came out with its rookie design challenge. I thought “OK, what the heck, I’ll put myself out there and see what happens.”
From that came Laurel Run and I was fortunate enough to win but, along the way a funny thing happened. To be sure, winning the contest was certainly a boost of confidence but I more enjoyed the feedback from my fellow competitors (ExironStone is another proud alumnus of that event). But I got feedback from others -- I can remember exchanging PMs with Scampi and Mroola. Soon Griff wanted the course for the CC-Tour and nudged me into joining the Summer Showdown Contest.
By that point there was no turning back. I had become welcomed and endocterned into the design community.
Perhaps that’s a bit of a ramble, but let’s go back to the original question -- Why do you design? What started as something for my own enjoyment morphed into something I could share with a like-minded community. Sure we may have strong opinions at times (especially in the heart of design competitions) and may not always see eye-to-eye, but we clearly all share a passion.
That’s it in a nutshell for me. I don’t design for play counts or accolades. I don’t so much design for the tours (though I’m honored when one of my courses is selected). I design because it’s a passion -- one I can share with a great group of guys.
I think that’s something to keep in mind at this point, especially when it feels like our credibility and worth in this game has come under attack by some. We can design for ourselves, design for our friends in this community. We can welcome new members to the design community with open arms and tips galore -- just the way we were treated when we were noobs once. Collectively, we can design for the joy of designing.
That’s the message I want to resonate with the design community. As campy as it sounds, damnit we are special and we are important -- even if it’s just within our own ranks. We enhance how we play this game. Some may not see the value in what we do, and that’s OK. For the number of things HB and Maximum Games flubbed on, there is one tenet of this game that’s spot on and I hope never changes -- there are several different one can enjoy this game -- be it designing or tours or True Sim or even ColinMafia’s LPGA courses from back in the day. There’s something for anyone, even if everything isn’t something to everyone.
For me, the enjoyment comes from designing and my interactions with the design community.
That’s why I design. How about you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 19:58:54 GMT -5
Well said, Jeremy.
It's no secret that this has become a hot button topic for me in the last couple of weeks given some of the threads over on HBS forums (toxic). Iplay A LOT of golf in real life...usually 3 - 5 times a week. i LOVE the "physiology" that goes into making up a course. i sometimes feel like I truly missed my calling by not being in course architecture. i study it...analyze it...read about it. When I watch a tourney on TV I find myself checking out the curves, slopes, and layout of a course more than watching the world's best players hit shots.
I will be the first to say that i don't believe that the community (whether here or HBS) somehow doesn't appreciate the time and effort that goes into putting out what we consider "tour worthy" courses. Truth is, many just want a modicum (yes, I said modicum...blame the wine) of control over their playing experience or truly don't understand the time and effort that goes into getting a course to that level. That being said, that in no way should take away from what we are or value as a community within a community.
Guys, I do what I do. I may not be the best designer out there...I may not even be considered good by those that matter. I do, however, have a passion for this. Regardless of what changes come down from HBS, I'll still do what I do. I'll still design...I'll still host contests...I'll still help a designer (regardless of "skill level")...I'll still stream tutorials and critiques...myself, staypuft, and Dan will still do AfterDark.
Jeremy hit the nail on the head here. We design because we like it...almost need it...like it's some sort of crack addiction. It's not about the masses heaping Laurels (see what I did there, Jeremy) on our heads and shoulders...it's the personal satisfaction in the knowledge that we carried a concept through to completion. It's knowing that you had an idea in your head and followed it through to the end. How much joy do you get the 15 seconds before you hit the publish button? You know....when you've played through your course and satisfied with how things look...how they play...that moment when you think yourself "sh%$, this is pretty good" and you want others to feel that same euphoria (yes, I said euphoria...blame the wine). Even those of us that claim to have no ego have to admit you enjoy the comments coming in. That first "Holy sh%$...that was amazing" is enough to make you crack open the designer yet again. Through all of the cussing, all of the "wtf, what have I started here", "sh%$. I'm creating work for myself"...it doesn't matter....you're following a calling that requires you to something bigger and better than the last...and you and I (the entire community actually, as they get to play your gem) are all better for it.
Regardless of how this shakes out, don't stop designing if you enjoy it. If you were only in it for a pat on the back, this isn't for you. If you have that passion....drive....vision....then stay with us. I promise I'll always be around in some form or another. Don't worry about the masses... design for you...design for us, the brotherhood of designers that support you and look forward to your growth. The best of us are still growing...evolving..learning. it doesn't end. It only ends if you hang it up and move on. To those that move on...well wishes and it's been a pleasure getting to know you and your style. For those walking on, I look forward to doing great things with you and blowing countless minds.
Anyways...you guys know I have a passion with this. If you harbor that same passion, then let's do great things going forward...
Great post, J
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Apr 11, 2018 20:08:21 GMT -5
It's not about the masses heaping Laurels (see what I did there, Jeremy) on our heads and shoulders... Why yes. Yes I did. Well played, Griff!
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Apr 11, 2018 21:36:55 GMT -5
two reasons really.
1) Because I want to play courses like the ones I make. Other guys do great work...I just like having a say in the courses I play. simple...but hey there you go. I think that I do a good job capturing the kind of golf course I'd like to play in real life or that you could actually go out and play and folks would pay money to go out and play. Even the GOOD video game courses can fail in this a lot of the time. WE've got a few guys that can put out courses that feel real to me...but (and take this the right way please) MOST of the courses simply wouldn't work out in the world. They have bits and pieces or concepts that simply don't translate. I don't like playing those even in a game because it kills the illusion for me. That illusion of REAL golf is a HUGE deal for me.
2) I need a creative outlet. I sing, I direct, I judge voice and music comps, I even dabble in art, and I'd love to write...but those things all take a kind of time that I simply don't have in my life right now or equipment or locations or any number of extra things. This? I can do this in little short intervals whenever I have a spare moment. I can do it while listening to some crazy Korngold or Mahler or just chilling to some jazz or whatever. It's an outlet for me.
*Bonus point!*) Honestly it's something in my life I can control. Kids are not in our control. Sometimes our circumstances aren't in our control. This is something that I can get into and, if I'm patient enough and work at it enough I can take this flat green landscape and make it dance around however I want until something lovely comes out!
pretty simple really.
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Post by coruler2 on Apr 12, 2018 0:09:02 GMT -5
Good topic Jeremy...and I'll say I have a love and hate relationship with designing.
I'm no artist, not even close...I could spend 10,000 hours on a course and it still won't look as eye-appealing as a Canuck or Reeb course. I just don't have the gift or skill. However, I have certain things I like in a course, in a hole, in a golf shot...and I try to replicate courses and holes and shots that appeal to me.
Once I've started a course, it pretty much consumes my thoughts until it's completed. I think about it at night, when I wake up, while at work, while driving, while with the family at the stuff they like to do. I keep thinking about what the next hole will look like, how it will play, etc. The worst part is when I'm on work travel...1-2 weeks with not have any access to the game or the designer...with a half-created course just sitting there wanting more time sunk into it.
In the end, I enjoy playing my own courses. I just like loading up an old creation and be like I DID THIS. Also, I like most fictional courses over the real courses...because it came from somebody's mind and craft for a video game just like mine, and not a copy of a professional. It seems more real because some other idiot like me spend 125 hours building a pretend course for a video game that only a few people see and play.
Then I go into a dark hole and not design for another 2-3 months, until the burning desire takes over and I start a new project. Usually I need incentive, like my last two were for an exclusive society event, and Griff's contest. I know I'm a bottom feeder in the contest, with no real shot of winning. My actual goal is to not come in last. But I enjoy being part of it, and how it pushes me to spend a few more hours here and there to make things as nice as I can make it.
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Post by scampi00 on Apr 12, 2018 10:53:56 GMT -5
I design because the Russian mob boss said he won't release my wife until I release a course that reaches more plays than Little Brook. I fear I'll never get Helga back...
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Post by Terry Grayson on Apr 12, 2018 12:45:12 GMT -5
Like others have said I design because I enjoy it, I have enjoyed designing courses since back in the pga2000 golf days... I strive to get better each time out and have always wanted thoughts/opinions to be "non-sugarcoated" when it comes to my designs.... Call it as you see it... I want that type feedback to try to improve next time... I dont design for attaboys but its a release, its a time for me to relax an go into my own little world of fun and creative relaxation...
I have designed a long long time and can count on one hand how many holes I felt like I nailed and truly captured what I thought it should look like,most recently it happened on 12 at Tombstone and 5 at Unforgiven those are two of probably 5 holes I have ever built that I thought, now this is a nice golf hole... I am never satisfied with my own designs truly 100 percent. I probably play my own courses maybe 2 to 3 times after publish if even that.... I spent so much time on it I am ready to get it out and get rid of looking at it.... I am a fast designer, but have tried to slow down recently because I want to create something special... Will I ever get something special probably not but I keep designing because I love it and thats the bottom line
Much admiration for the designers in this game, you come up with some magnificent courses where I can escape the "real world" for a little while...
Just my thoughts,
Terry
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Apr 12, 2018 13:22:25 GMT -5
Great stuff so far guys ... Well, maybe scampi00 's Russian joke needs some work but other than that... Think we're hitting on some common themes which, like I said in the OP, help to bond us together! Keep those thoughts coming!
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Apr 12, 2018 13:50:31 GMT -5
I got into TGC1 after getting bored of the EA golf franchise and thought I'd try what else was on the market. I got it on game pass and thought I'd give the designer and go. Shortly after that TGC2 came out and I thought I'd try the designer again, first attempt was Gleneagles Centenary Course. Which was an autogen effort only replicating the lengths, bunkers and water, then I realised the RCRs designed by others were more or less spot on.
So by this point I thought the easier option was fictional courses which allow freedom to design what you want. When playing some courses I wondered how designers done certain aspects of the course, like reebdoog's water mill in Old Tom's Ferry. I wanted to see what I could do with the designer, which I suppose in a way led me down the wrong path of designing for the background stuff that doesn't make a good course. So after creating viking ships, a great hall and a castle in realised the most important thing is the actual course.
I looked for inspiration and pointers in playing rounds and watching videos. So after learning a bit and applying it and reading about rejected courses I submitted my first course to TGC Tours. I was glad when Ravines GC was accepted then reviewed on YouTube. Getting comments and advice about the course gives you some confidence and focus for the future.
I then started on Claymore Course at Arkinholm (Tour) to try a different approach to a course as well as trying to create a course with tour features and crowds. That grew legs with the tees and hole names and trying to find something on some holes to tie into the name. So I published and submitted to TGC Tours to be accepted again and put on to the tour list. I guess something that drove me to make it better was not appearing on the rejected thread and wasting reviewer's time and the comments and plays.
I guess a sense of accomplishment and recognition makes me click "new course" again. Also I'm trying to create courses that although may not look like a real course but have something different in them. My current project is a journey from countryside to city but I need to remind myself it's the course that matters.
There are so many people involved in this game who have helped me keep at it with tips and comments. I'm hoping to be able to get a course that I'm satisfied with before I get sick of designing and playtesting and hit the publish button.
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Post by welikeitroughnc on Apr 12, 2018 14:37:30 GMT -5
..... hmm... to see how angry I can make the best virtual golfers on the planet... 😂😂😂 maybe some fetal positions .... 😜 yea I’m sadistic like that sometimes.... but I’m all honesty I like the natural beauty of golf courses the more rugged natural stuff speaks to me especially. I love trying to recreate that.
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Post by scampi00 on Apr 12, 2018 18:06:36 GMT -5
Great stuff so far guys ... Well, maybe scampi00 's Russian joke needs some work but other than that... Think we're hitting on some common themes which, like I said in the OP, help to bond us together! Keep those thoughts coming! This isn't a joke...this is my life...
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Post by rob4590 on Apr 13, 2018 3:16:48 GMT -5
Why design?
1) This is the first golf game where the designer has been simple to get into. Could the designer be better? Of course. But I've never found one that allows a beginner to get started so easily - and that allows more people to actually get designing!
2) Having done some tweaking of holes (mostly bunkering) in real life at clubs I've worked at, this allows me to take that further and 'go the whole hog'. And allows me to take holes that I see in real life and say to myself 'if only they had done x, it would be a brilliant hole' and make that improved hole in TGC.
3) A lot of holes that you see in game are holes that would be totally unrealistic in real life (far too hard for real golfers to play) - but are perfect for computer golf. I like designing those holes to challenge myself (and others) in game. It therefore allows my imagination to run wild.
As for that thread on HB forums - that thread sums up why I (and I'm sure many others) don't bother going on those forums much......
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Post by ErixonStone on Apr 13, 2018 9:55:49 GMT -5
Golf is a unique game. It can be enjoyed alone. It can be enjoyed among a few friends, neighbors, or even strangers. It can be enjoyed in large groups. Most of the time for most players, the competition in golf is between the player and himself, and the player and the course.
A golf course is an intersection between sport and art, where the sport affects the art, and the art affects the sport. No other sport can lay claim to this synergy. Basketball courts and hockey rinks are of a standard size with goals built to exact specifications and markings carefully laid out the same way in every arena. Football fields are also of a regulation size where the only differences among venues are the weather and the playing surfaces themselves. The walls defining a baseball playing field are unique to each venue, but fair territory always extends out at a 90-degree angle from home plate, the bases are always 90 feet apart, and the pitching mound is always 10 inches high and the rubber is always 60 feet, 6 inches from home plate.
One other sport that can claim a similar, but limited congruence is bowling, but the differences among venues are highly regulated, and only a handful of "patterns" are allowed. Moreover, the differences in bowling conditions are invisible, and the player is responsible for knowing/identifying the conditions and making the proper adjustments.
In golf, the challenges are unique to each venue and are laid out in front of the golfer. Nothing is a secret, and the player has all the information needed to plan his way around the course. The course dictates the player's strategy. Proper planning and quality execution are equal components of a winning effort.
In other sports, players are often rewarded for poor planning and execution because the opponent is human. A fastball can be thrown down the middle to a good fastball hitter, but he could still hit a pop-up. A quarterback could throw a terrible pass to a covered receiver, have the ball bounce off the defender's knee and into the hands of a receiver the quarterback didn't even target. A six-time Stanley Cup winning goal scorer could deke out the goalie on a breakaway and then slide the puck wide of the empty goal. All of these are possible because the opponent can make mistakes too.
In golf, a player's planning and execution are absolute because the course is rigid and unchanging. A player can line up a shot that is well executed, but poorly planned and have the ball spin backwards and roll into the water. When he tries again, his same poorly planned shot, despite also being well executed, spins back into the same hazard. This cycle repeats until the player realizes his error is not in execution, but in planning, and changes his plan. By then, it's too late.
But that is not the only interaction between player and course. The art of strategic course design is presenting a fair, varied challenge to a target subset of golfers, and the mastery of the art is the ability to target the widest subset. In this way, the player dictates to the course. Is the designer seeking to challenge the best players in the world, or to provide a fun, relaxing few hours for the casual golfer, or the novice golfer?
There's a visual element and a strategic element, and both are important. They are also not mutually-exclusive, so a designer can spend time building a course that fairly challenges players, but he is not doing so at the expense of visual artistry. In the realm of video game golf, the artist is not limited to realistic creations and, instead, free to imagine and express without constraints. The designer is free to move earth to create strategic elements with disregard to budgets or deadlines.
I design because I want to express my vision by creating a strategic challenge and a visual environment. With each course, I hope to improve in both strategic design and visual design. I design holes and courses I would like to play, and build environments I would want to visit while playing. I share them because I believe players will enjoy them in a similar way that I do.
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Post by pablo on Apr 13, 2018 14:45:14 GMT -5
Great post.... For me the answer is very easy. Because I like it. There's nothing more. Obviously with each and every one of my designs I'm looking for different things, or different approaches to the same thing, which is even funnier. I don't have any further reason to design. I've enjoyed it since PGA 2000. Lots of years ago, around 18 (great maths skills ). I've only been really active with two golf games, PGA 2000 and TGC franchise. I fooled for a bit with links 2003 but never got the flow of the designer, and the TW series.... well, I couldn't design, never attracted me. A bit like Rory I bought it on sales at 15€ and must have put a total of two hours on it. I play golf video games when I can design. As simple as that But there's another question that for me is more interesting and for which I don't have a good answer. Why do I publish? I never found a really good answer (nor did i search it to be honest) but hey, why do you publish?
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Apr 13, 2018 19:02:12 GMT -5
But there's another question that for me is more interesting and for which I don't have a good answer. Why do I publish? I never found a really good answer (nor did i search it to be honest) but hey, why do you publish? That's a very profound question, Pablo! To be sure, there's some satisfaction about having your creation enjoyed and accepted by others. As much as I say I design primarily for myself -- and I do, don't get me wrong -- there's certainly a part of my that gets a jolt from having a course get on tour, or fare well in a contest, and I'm reasonably sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. Think it's human nature to want to be accepted for something, especially something you've put so many hours into. That's not the No. 1 reason that I publish, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it wasn't an underlying factor. There's also the learning aspect. I feel that I learn something and improve with each course I make. Feedback goes a long way in that aspect -- be it in a contest or from those who post in a course thread. That ties back into the design community which I've found far more often than not to be very honest and helpful. At the end of the day, if we push ourselves to put out better courses, everyone wins -- we improve individually, set the bar for our fellow designers, and give the players some awesome, original courses to play on. It's also a way to give back to this game, I feel. OK maybe this game does NEED its 170,867th course published, but if someone gets enjoyment out of it other than myself, that's a win in my book. That's the thing about this game. The designer and what the design community is able to produce with it are what make this game. Without us, this game is the Tiger/Rory series without the name recognition (regardless of the importance -- or lack thereof -- it's currently being given in some circles). It would get pretty stale after awhile. Even Everybody's Golf, which I find to be a nice change of pace every once in a while, get's stale pretty damn quick with only 5-to-8 courses to play, depending on if you sink $$ into the DLC. I think that's it for me why I publish. I'll admit I still get nervous before I hit that button, and put yourself and your creation out there for the world to see. But hopefully people enjoy my work, I learn something in the process (through feedback and/or self-reflection) and I know I'm doing my part to keep this as the most dynamic golf series ever created, in terms of user-generated content.
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