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Post by mattf27 on Apr 13, 2018 20:02:03 GMT -5
Well, for me personally, I've got a big creative streak, as well as being a giant nerd, since I come from an engineering/math background. So this kind of combines the two sides, where you're trying to make something artistic and visually attractive, as well as having a strategic value that should make the player make decisions and evaluations. Plus I'm a giant golf nut, and this scratches that itch a little when I can't play. I'm an avid painter, and fairly decent at it I think, but I really have to be in the right mindset to paint, and it's not something I'm going to be able to do more than once or twice a week. But designing a course has some of that unbridled creative outlet when I'm feeling it, as well as lots of mindless tasks I can do to unwind while watching TV or something in the background. I find it rather zen. There's also the sharing aspect of it, which I enjoy. At best, a painting I make might bring a little joy to a couple dozen people depending on the exposure, and it's really satisfying to be able to step back and appreciate that you created that thing that other people enjoy. But the courses I make can easily reach a couple hundred or thousand people, which is pretty awesome. There's a lot of aspects to it I enjoy, even if I can't touch on many of them without rambling a little.
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Post by jacobkessler on Apr 13, 2018 21:23:54 GMT -5
‘Cause I can.
Seriously though... I love designing. I wasn’t around back in the Links days so I was always looking for a way to make those ideas on paper actually visible... then I stumbled upon this game. While I wish things were a bit quicker, it’s seriously making my designing dreams come true. I can make my fictional ideas a reality, or recreate a course I’m only allowed to play as a guest and play it any time.
Growing up, things weren’t so easy... all I had was a crappy muni and used clubs. Didn’t play a private course until I was 14 and didn’t belong to one until I was well out of college. This summer I’m moving into a bigger house near a better club and it’s exciting. But from Sh!tty Waters Municipal Golf Course to Heritage Golf Club now, I’ve always enjoyed the art side of golf... that being the design. It’s weird that that’s how it all connects... but if I could go back in time, I’d try to go into Golf Course Architecture.
Wow... don’t know where that came from lol. Just kind of all spilled out into words.
Anyway, yeah, designing is awesome.
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Apr 13, 2018 21:34:24 GMT -5
I wasn’t around back in the Links days so I was always looking for a way to make those ideas on paper actually visible... then I stumbled upon this game. While I wish things were a bit quicker, it’s seriously making my designing dreams come true. I can make my fictional ideas a reality, or recreate a course I’m only allowed to play as a guest and play it any time. ^^ This ^^ I never really was exposed to Links, but my first virtually design foray was in the Tiger Woods 03-05 days until EA phased out the designer. My biggest deal w/ it was it was super cumbersome, and not the most stable (anyone having to remember having to optimize detail constantly). Pro Stroke Golf & Custom Play Golf, weren't much better. With the designer in this game, I'm finally able to translate the ideas in my head into a 3D state without having it look like a flaming mess (at least in my mind)! Is it time-consuming? Yeah, but it doesn't feel like an impossible task, as it felt for me in earlier games.
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Post by pablo on Apr 14, 2018 1:46:43 GMT -5
I wasn’t around back in the Links days so I was always looking for a way to make those ideas on paper actually visible... then I stumbled upon this game. While I wish things were a bit quicker, it’s seriously making my designing dreams come true. I can make my fictional ideas a reality, or recreate a course I’m only allowed to play as a guest and play it any time. ^^ This ^^ I never really was exposed to Links, but my first virtually design foray was in the Tiger Woods 03-05 days until EA phased out the designer. My biggest deal w/ it was it was super cumbersome, and not the most stable (anyone having to remember having to optimize detail constantly). Pro Stroke Golf & Custom Play Golf, weren't much better. With the designer in this game, I'm finally able to translate the ideas in my head into a 3D state without having it look like a flaming mess (at least in my mind)! Is it time-consuming? Yeah, but it doesn't feel like an impossible task, as it felt for me in earlier games. Actually that designer was the one PGA 2000 included, when sierra sport stopped supporting the game, the course architect was built into TW series. That designer featured some amazing features, but yes, the optimizing detail part was so damm repetitive
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Post by pablo on Apr 14, 2018 2:47:47 GMT -5
But there's another question that for me is more interesting and for which I don't have a good answer. Why do I publish? I never found a really good answer (nor did i search it to be honest) but hey, why do you publish? That's a very profound question, Pablo! To be sure, there's some satisfaction about having your creation enjoyed and accepted by others. As much as I say I design primarily for myself -- and I do, don't get me wrong -- there's certainly a part of my that gets a jolt from having a course get on tour, or fare well in a contest, and I'm reasonably sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. Think it's human nature to want to be accepted for something, especially something you've put so many hours into. That's not the No. 1 reason that I publish, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it wasn't an underlying factor. There's also the learning aspect. I feel that I learn something and improve with each course I make. Feedback goes a long way in that aspect -- be it in a contest or from those who post in a course thread. That ties back into the design community which I've found far more often than not to be very honest and helpful. At the end of the day, if we push ourselves to put out better courses, everyone wins -- we improve individually, set the bar for our fellow designers, and give the players some awesome, original courses to play on. It's also a way to give back to this game, I feel. OK maybe this game does NEED its 170,867th course published, but if someone gets enjoyment out of it other than myself, that's a win in my book. That's the thing about this game. The designer and what the design community is able to produce with it are what make this game. Without us, this game is the Tiger/Rory series without the name recognition (regardless of the importance -- or lack thereof -- it's currently being given in some circles). It would get pretty stale after awhile. Even Everybody's Golf, which I find to be a nice change of pace every once in a while, get's stale pretty damn quick with only 5-to-8 courses to play, depending on if you sink $$ into the DLC. I think that's it for me why I publish. I'll admit I still get nervous before I hit that button, and put yourself and your creation out there for the world to see. But hopefully people enjoy my work, I learn something in the process (through feedback and/or self-reflection) and I know I'm doing my part to keep this as the most dynamic golf series ever created, in terms of user-generated content. From time to time I have profound thoughts Jeremy. Then I take a shot of single malt scotch and feel much better I've been thinking about it and in all honesty, I think the big reason for me to publish is wanting everyone to play what I created. I'm not expecting everyone to enjoy the experience, nor am too worried about what people think about my creations. If people enjoy my courses, great, if not.... also great. As Griff says I do what I do and usually like it (with its own wrong and right things obviously). What I like the most is seeing how my skills evolve (hopefully improve). My first courses, compared with the latest ones are pure garbage, but my own personal signature is present in all of them. The learning? I won't lie, except the courses I've had dissected on streams (specially by griff on the contests - huge huge appreciation for that in an absolutely selfish way) has been completely self-taught. Most of the time as a designer you get feedback like "loved the course" "hated the pins" "the greens are [...]) but you don't get a full review, so you have to take what you get from those very few in depth reviews you get and mix them in your head with what you do and try to blend them. I think most of the learning curve comes from what you call self-reflection. And that's the part that I love. You get usually a very vague sentence and from there you gotta develop a full improvement system. The community aspect is a key factor also. Every time someone has asked me to play his/her new course, my main goal has been the same, trying to encourage that person to keep plugging with the designer. The more quality courses we have, the better for the community. And that includes myself. I'm bringing a good amount of good courses, so yes, I also want to help building this community.
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Post by mrooola on Apr 14, 2018 4:36:37 GMT -5
For me it started when I was a kid. Drawing up courses on paper and creating my own game using these drawings, a ruler and a dice. Fun times...
It evolved in to one of the old Nicklaus games for PC in the late 80s or early 90s (Can't remember the name). It included I simple designer where I tried to replicate any course I had played. Soon after this my passion for golf disappeared. Skip forward to adult good and my passion came back and along side it a need to play golf video games and more so find a game that included a designer. Enters TGC.
Like most I had no knowledge about any forums. I tweaked auto gen courses and hit publish for the sole reason to play them with wind for my own enjoyment. I felt I had no control over the sculpting brushes and searched for help on YouTube. Found a few bad ones, but then noticed canucks videos. At this point I started designing more and has continued to do until this day.
None of this answers the question though. Why do I design? I do it for multiple reasons.
1. A creative outlet. 2. To get alone time from the family when they go to sleep is another. 3. Sometimes I design even when I don't really want to. I listen to A lot of music and like to keep my eyes and hands occupied with something when I do. Designing can be that something at times. It shows (to me atleast) when I'm not REALLY invested in the designer.
So why do I publish?
In the beginning it was a great way to get feedback and improve. I learnt a lot especially over at HB studios forum through feedback from other players and designers. It was exciting to release courses and see if others also thought that I improved. As time goes though it got more and more difficult to get proper feedback and trying to give feedback on the forums just gets messy. Many designers don't like feedback of the developmental kind even if they ask for it. They only want motivational.
I've actually stopped making posts about my courses. Then again, most of my designs are in various competitions so it's not like they don't reach a number of players anyway. That publish button is often connected with an obligation. Then as others have said. I like my courses. Thus I like to play my courses. If I want to play them in wind I need to publish.
If HB gives full control over the settings of a course I would publish them all pitch black. Full green speed and firmness and attach a remomendated setting in the course profile when I submit it to Tgctours. All who enjoy my courses will then have settings available and those who don't agree with how I set them up can do whatever they want. Probably not play them.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2018 10:46:41 GMT -5
Because of the attitudes and comments on display by posters over on HBS (and even the attitudes and comments of HBS staffers to a certain degree), it makes me wonder how they would feel if the bulk of design community "unionized" and started charging to release a course? Meaning a GoFundMe page or something similar gets set up and a course is not published until the designer's goal is met (like $30 - $50). Obviously anything we publish becomes the property of HBS, HBS (using that as context) has exploited designers the last 2 games to both promote the editor and have something decent to play, the "players" believe they not only have the right but are entitled to make whatever changes to said courses because they purchased the game, and if we, as designers, have any objections at all about maintaining SOME creative control over OUR work we "should take a hike because you will be replaced." It might very well be eye opening if all they had was autogen crap and some questionable courses to play without paying (thus appreciating) the time and effort it goes into building a course.
Don't get me wrong...I'm not seriously suggesting that the be a path that is followed, but I can damn sure see the merit in it given crap and lack of respect being displayed on the other boards.
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Post by mav78 on Apr 14, 2018 11:50:45 GMT -5
It's an addiction I can switch off. Just driving in the car looking out of the window I'm picturing holes I could design on the landscape. Worked on a golf course nearly 20 years and spent countless hours parked up on my buggy drawing designs on a quiet afternoon before any computer games were available. I remember a program on PC a long time ago, it was basically paint but with a few options for golf features. Then there was Arnold Palmer Course Designer, CustomPlay golf and finally TGC. I always hoped what we have with TGC would happen. TGCTours was beyond my wildest hope. There is something beyond just the golf factor though, I would love to design F1 tracks too. Just that creative side.
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Post by ErixonStone on Apr 14, 2018 18:12:19 GMT -5
Please step off the ledge. I think the fear that players, en masse, will crank the settings up or down and then give a poor rating is irrational. Sure, it could happen, in theory, but it isn't likely to be something that happens with regularity.
If you're designing for yourself, or for a design competition, or for the TGCT community, then what are you worried about? It's overwhelmingly likely that schedulers would use recommended settings, or deviate only slightly, unless they reach out to the designer for input.
If you're worried about the clowns, why?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2018 18:26:46 GMT -5
Please step off the ledge. I think the fear that players, en masse, will crank the settings up or down and then give a poor rating is irrational. Sure, it could happen, in theory, but it isn't likely to be something that happens with regularity. If you're designing for yourself, or for a design competition, or for the TGCT community, then what are you worried about? It's overwhelmingly likely that schedulers would use recommended settings, or deviate only slightly, unless they reach out to the designer for input. If you're worried about the clowns, why? If you're speaking to me, then please don't. I was playing and obviously being sarcastic in that post. Not in the mood for a lecture today, Patrick. Better yet, if you EVER feel the need to call me out again then do it in PM.
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Apr 14, 2018 18:52:21 GMT -5
Please step off the ledge. I think the fear that players, en masse, will crank the settings up or down and then give a poor rating is irrational. Sure, it could happen, in theory, but it isn't likely to be something that happens with regularity. If you're designing for yourself, or for a design competition, or for the TGCT community, then what are you worried about? It's overwhelmingly likely that schedulers would use recommended settings, or deviate only slightly, unless they reach out to the designer for input. If you're worried about the clowns, why? As long as HBS does what it says it will and defaults courses to the designer's specified setting, I think your initial point is relatively accurate. Shaun stated, and I tend to agree, that we will typically be too lazy to change the settings from default -- at very least the first time through. To me this is less about giving the players the option to bastardize a course than it is the players' (and to a lesser extent HBS's) inability to see why this could ruffle the design community and resentment that it has with some. I think, overall, the general attitude over on those boards right now is flat out detrimental to our community, led by JohnEric, Buck, et al. The fear, then, is less about player control and more about an overall apathy in this game toward the design community. The more we are marginalized, the less willing HBS will be willing to sink assets into that portion of the game to where in future iterations, we either get the same designer w/ no improvements or ... worse yet ... the designer gets phased out all together like it did in the Tiger Woods series for PC. I don't know if I totally agree with this train of thought, but I can certainly see the logic behind it. That's why I thought it was a good time for us to look in the mirror and ask ourselves why we design -- as a means of both providing some introspection into our own processes and underscoring the bond we share as designers.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Apr 14, 2018 20:50:32 GMT -5
I think players as a group feel entitled to our courses. I also think that many of them wouldn't know a good course if it crawled up their bunghole sideways.
Not all of them...but on the whole I think their "appreciation" is lip service and horse crap.
I don't give a flying flip about the settings thing. I think a range is a super idea and I'd be 100% behind that...but they can do whatever they want. If a player likes playing a course setup that's totally wonky...so be it.
If they don't recognize a good course initially then why worry about them changing things so they like it better? What they like is junk so...junk it up cowboy!
heh. BACK ON TOPIC NOW PLZ K THX
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Post by ErixonStone on Apr 14, 2018 23:56:22 GMT -5
I'm not calling anyone out. I'm not even criticizing anyone. You feel how you feel.
Just trying to encourage anyone who feels like HB is screwing the design community to take a step back and reconsider.
I was as critical as anyone initially. I took a step back and thought about it, and realized it doesn't matter much to me.
I think HB still has the designers in focus. They're continuing to improve the designer with things like spline-fill, new objects, better trees and such.
That's all I'm getting at. Didn't intend to come off otherwise.
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Post by welikeitroughnc on Apr 16, 2018 12:38:01 GMT -5
Because of the attitudes and comments on display by posters over on HBS (and even the attitudes and comments of HBS staffers to a certain degree), it makes me wonder how they would feel if the bulk of design community "unionized" and started charging to release a course? Meaning a GoFundMe page or something similar gets set up and a course is not published until the designer's goal is met (like $30 - $50). Obviously anything we publish becomes the property of HBS, HBS (using that as context) has exploited designers the last 2 games to both promote the editor and have something decent to play, the "players" believe they not only have the right but are entitled to make whatever changes to said courses because they purchased the game, and if we, as designers, have any objections at all about maintaining SOME creative control over OUR work we "should take a hike because you will be replaced." It might very well be eye opening if all they had was autogen crap and some questionable courses to play without paying (thus appreciating) the time and effort it goes into building a course. Don't get me wrong...I'm not seriously suggesting that the be a path that is followed, but I can damn sure see the merit in it given crap and lack of respect being displayed on the other boards. I basically put a comment over there to this same degree quoting one of the pricks that said we can hit the road if we don’t like it blah blah, asking what going to happen when a majority of the designers get fed up with ass hats like him and quit designing all together??? I guess they will have auto gen crap and OFFICIAL hb courses to play.... my comment was removed within 20 minutes my feelings atm is @!$# them
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Post by rob4590 on Apr 16, 2018 12:57:09 GMT -5
Slightly off topic - but has HB said exactly WHO is designing these licenced official courses in TGC2019?
ie will they actually be any good (in game)
Could harm their image badly if they are like most of the official courses in 2.....
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