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Post by claybagel on Aug 4, 2016 15:48:47 GMT -5
For practical purposes, Boomer did play, he did win and didn't cheat in those times. Technically he shouldn't have been in those tournaments but he was You're contradicting yourself BT. You say he didn't cheat, and then say he had no right to be part of those tournaments in the first instance. So, in fact, he did cheat. If i put on a wig, go win the Womens 100M Gold, and one year later they find out i'm a man, do i still deserve the medal because i was the fastest on the day, or should it be taken from me because i had no right to run the race in the first place? Let's take a look at the case of Lance Armstrong, then, which is of similar nature. Years after he won his Tour de France titles, he was stripped of his titles. He had no right to be competing in the first place because he was doping. Were those titles redistributed to the runner-ups? No. You start running into the fallacy of predetermined outcome if you start adjusting trophies and money after the fact. You cannot guarantee the same result if situations change. For example, let's say Boomer was never on tour. That means there's a spot open on tour for someone else. Someone on the Euro tour is now on their preferred tour. Maybe they win then. Maybe they don't but someone uses their ghost ball instead of Boomers and ends up winning. The point is that assuming things opens you up to more trouble. |
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Post by hammo24983 on Aug 4, 2016 15:53:20 GMT -5
I get that peeps might want to claim what they feel is rightfully theirs had Boomer physically cheated again - used a straight shooter/auto pilot putter/score scrubber or what ever they think of next. But, as far as I understand it, Boomer never cheated his way to his wins. Basically won fair and square on the day - except perhaps he was supposed to sit out for a while longer. So you think Steve should have the right to keep his trophies even though he was banned and deceived us all by making up another person? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 15:53:43 GMT -5
I get that peeps might want to claim what they feel is rightfully theirs had Boomer physically cheated again - used a straight shooter/auto pilot putter/score scrubber or what ever they think of next. But, as far as I understand it, Boomer never cheated his way to his wins. Basically won fair and square on the day - except perhaps he was supposed to sit out for a while longer. The thing is, he was ineligible to play in those tournaments, so whether or not he did it without physically cheating is irrelevant. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 15:54:32 GMT -5
You're contradicting yourself BT. You say he didn't cheat, and then say he had no right to be part of those tournaments in the first instance. So, in fact, he did cheat. If i put on a wig, go win the Womens 100M Gold, and one year later they find out i'm a man, do i still deserve the medal because i was the fastest on the day, or should it be taken from me because i had no right to run the race in the first place? Let's take a look at the case of Lance Armstrong, then, which is of similar nature. Years after he won his Tour de France titles, he was stripped of his titles. He had no right to be competing in the first place because he was doping. Were those titles redistributed to the runner-ups? No. You start running into the fallacy of predetermined outcome if you start adjusting trophies and money after the fact. You cannot guarantee the same result if situations change. For example, let's say Boomer was never on tour. That means there's a spot open on tour for someone else. Someone on the Euro tour is now on their preferred tour. Maybe they win then. Maybe they don't but someone uses their ghost ball instead of Boomers and ends up winning. The point is that assuming things opens you up to more trouble. The flaw in your argument is that Armstrong would never have been there in the first place, so whatever was done with him is irrelevant to this particular situation. |
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Post by Brighttail on Aug 4, 2016 15:59:40 GMT -5
Once again, the major difference in ALL of these examples is they are REAL LIFE! There is real money involved. There are paid people who, well get paid to actually make the corrections to the record and pay the legal team to sue to get the medals back and such.
I'm not sure how else better to say this, the amount of work that would be needed to literally correct every tournament played since May 2015 is daunting. "But why not just correct the tournaments he won?" Great idea, but once again that one tournament means that everyone who played gets a different amount of fake money and fake points that then have to be adjusted from that tournament FORWARD since the points are based on an average of 40 weeks.
In the end, is it really worth it? It was done for the original infraction on the Masters because it was found within a week or so of the Masters so they didn't have to go back so far to change things.
There is a difference to what is 'fair' and what is 'realistic'. If this were a pay site and we were all paying dues and making real money, then absolutely, go back and change the tournaments and correct the stats. As this this isn't one of those sites, then lets left Tim and them alone to be able to spend what limited personal time they have on something that may better benefit this site.
There just comes a point where you have to ask, 'is it worth the effort?' and the admin clearly think that it is not. The tournaments were played. There is no way to prove if Steve wasn't in that tournament, that the results would have been the exact same. The 2nd place winner may have played differently in their final round if they knew that they were ahead than thinking they were behind. Someone who was in 10th place may not have played so recklessly if Steve wasn't in the lead. There are simply too many variables and in the end what does it matter. Boomer's account will be removed and his wins vacated. It is the simplest and easiest way to go. Is it the fairest? Probably not, but considering the amount of time Tim and the other admins have put into this site, I'm willing to cut them a break.
If they decide to change a 0 to a 1 for those two people to show they now have a victory. I don't see a big issue in that, but for that to be done, then I think everyone needs to agree that there would be no OTHER adjustments because if you do it for two, others are going to want concessions too.
Also Steve isn't keeping anything. Boomer account won those tournies, not Steve's. He is on the Steve account and hopefully the Boomer account is deleted.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Aug 4, 2016 16:01:53 GMT -5
Where has anyone seriously suggested that admin should spend a week recalculating everything?
Seriously, because it keeps being mentioned and i don't recall a single person actually asking for it....
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Post by hammo24983 on Aug 4, 2016 16:02:20 GMT -5
I understand all the admins take time out of their own lives to run this great site and we all truly grateful for it. I guess all I'll add is that there are many guys on here who spend hours upon hours working on their games to try to get better and they do it fairly. Although it's only make believe trophies, they still mean quite a bit to people, otherwise why spend the time trying to get better?
So I know if I had got beatin by someone who was breaking the rules, I'd be pretty pissed. There are many cases where people have not got the winners prize when it's later been found out the the winner has cheated. However the person that has broken the rules always gets his trophy taken away. So at the very worst Steve should not have those trophies because he broke the rules to get them. Yes I know they are fake trophies and they mean nothing, but to this community I believe they do mean something. That's one of the many reasons we are all here
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Post by bentfivewood on Aug 4, 2016 16:13:53 GMT -5
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.[
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Post by Morgan-esque on Aug 4, 2016 16:46:54 GMT -5
We are NOT asking for fake money, fake WGR points and whatever else there is. I don't give a sh%$ about those things. Just quite simply, that his wins are removed to go with a precedent previously shown and with the wins being reallocated to those in 2nd place.
Is that REALLY so difficult? It has been done before, albeit for different reasons.
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Post by claybagel on Aug 4, 2016 16:54:15 GMT -5
Let's take a look at the case of Lance Armstrong, then, which is of similar nature. Years after he won his Tour de France titles, he was stripped of his titles. He had no right to be competing in the first place because he was doping. Were those titles redistributed to the runner-ups? No. You start running into the fallacy of predetermined outcome if you start adjusting trophies and money after the fact. You cannot guarantee the same result if situations change. For example, let's say Boomer was never on tour. That means there's a spot open on tour for someone else. Someone on the Euro tour is now on their preferred tour. Maybe they win then. Maybe they don't but someone uses their ghost ball instead of Boomers and ends up winning. The point is that assuming things opens you up to more trouble. The flaw in your argument is that Armstrong would never have been there in the first place, so whatever was done with him is irrelevant to this particular situation. But if Steve would have just served his suspension in the first place, Boomer would have never been there either. Is that not a similar situation? |
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Post by shoey101 on Aug 4, 2016 16:58:47 GMT -5
I haven't heard one person ask for a change in money or wgr or adjust everyones position for the weeks he won.I know if I came in 2nd to him I would definitely want the trophy. That's the main reason we all started with TGC tours. They earned the trophies so i think they should get them. If it was done for last years master's I think it should be done for his 3 "wins".
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Post by biyombo on Aug 4, 2016 17:09:48 GMT -5
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.[  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 17:34:05 GMT -5
The flaw in your argument is that Armstrong would never have been there in the first place, so whatever was done with him is irrelevant to this particular situation. But if Steve would have just served his suspension in the first place, Boomer would have never been there either. Is that not a similar situation? There's no way that Armstrong could have competed as someone else. So when he won, yes, he was cheating but it wasn't like what Steve did in creating a fake persona. What Armstrong did was more akin to someone cheating via using a controller to do straight shooting. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 17:42:34 GMT -5
Here you go Mike and James for what it's worth.......have to supply your own scissors I'm afraid:
Maybe we should just stop giving trophies then it won't make a difference who wins? |
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Post by mcbogga on Aug 4, 2016 18:53:07 GMT -5
I think everyone gets the hassle if all records of Boom Boon were to be wiped. But on the other hand handling this is about the integrity of the site. There are pretty ambitious parts written on member expectations and code of conduct. Here you have a massive breach of those. Is that OK?
Basically this guy cheated, then blatantly ignored his penalty and returned on another account, which also means he was cheating.
First time cheating = trophy stripped and one year ban
Second time cheating (continuously over a long period) - Get to keep you trophies and a shorter ban?
Seems the path of least resistance here would be to give the boys their trophy cards, then Change Boomers name to indicate that he is a banned cheater.
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