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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 3:41:49 GMT -5
posted this in another thread but thought I should post in in the suggestion forum...
There's arguments for and against having Euro as a number 2 to PGA's 1.
I've long been thinking this. In real life the PGA is clear number 1. Why is this? Larger prize money is the main reason. With prize money meaning little to us TGCTours folks (other than being a way to get position points on the season long leaderboard) it means it doesn't matter if the PGA offer more prize money than Euro Tour.
So how about world ranking points earned? I have just worked out during the year 2014 that the average of world ranking points at stake in a regular PGA season event (doesn't include WGC, majors and alternate events) was 51. The Euro Tour was 33. Both had minimum events rating but it was the strength of field rating that brought up the PGAs events. That's a big difference in quality.
The strength of field rating is a great way to give points out in real life due to the best players not playing every week. Here they do so maybe there should be a limit on each event depending on the real life prestige. The really good players will try and win on PGA like real life, the Middle of the road players could try and be a big fish in the euros or attempt to take on the big boys of the PGA.
PGA Tour
Players Championship 80 (same as real life)
Big event 60
Average event 50
Small event 40
Euro Tour
BMW Championship 64 (same as real life)
Big event 40
Average event 30
Small event 20
Alternate events on PGA/Euros (these will be played during major/wgc weeks) 20
Web.com
Normal 14 (same as real life)
Tour Championship 20 (same as real life)
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Post by mcbogga on Sept 13, 2015 7:45:28 GMT -5
At TGCT euro is pretty much no1 seeing how the top three on the WGR calls it their home tour...
But it's not a bad idea - even if I think letting it sort itself out based in the actual strength of field as current system is better IMO.
How do you propose the WGC and majors be handled?
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Post by fuzion on Sept 13, 2015 7:50:34 GMT -5
Hi Luke, interesting post. I'll have a discussion with the gang to see how we want to shape the top tours going into Season 2.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 11:42:02 GMT -5
I thought I read quite a while back from Tim that there is a strength of field element to our own WGR equation.
That would explain why the WGR is so even on the PGA and European tours? The WGR seems split fairly evenly once you look down the top 100 and beyond.
If we were to have a two-tiered system like this, then it would be like having a tour between Web and the PGA. You would then need exemptions in place to move up?! Then there is the problem of people being moved into a tour they don't want to be in. Forcing that doesn't sound fun and I would think would turn a few people away from playing.
FWIW here a Web win WGR points is equal to roughly a 6th place finish on the PGA. A CC-A win is like a top 5 or better on Web, and I'm not sure below that, but I would think it is similar until the lowest CC tiers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 16:50:38 GMT -5
At TGCT euro is pretty much no1 seeing how the top three on the WGR calls it their home tour... But it's not a bad idea - even if I think letting it sort itself out based in the actual strength of field as current system is better IMO. How do you propose the WGC and majors be handled? Yeah just brainstorming ideas. If Euro were to be number 2 then there has to be a reason. Plus, majors aren't really that major at the mo because all the good players play each event anyway so the SoF makes them Major-fied anyway. I'd have majors just like real life (100 points) and WGC averaged around the 70 mark. If I recall Bob there is a SoF number added as per real life. That's the problem though, in real life it's needed as players don't play every event, here we do. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 16:57:40 GMT -5
I thought I read quite a while back from Tim that there is a strength of field element to our own WGR equation. That would explain why the WGR is so even on the PGA and European tours? The WGR seems split fairly evenly once you look down the top 100 and beyond. If we were to have a two-tiered system like this, then it would be like having a tour between Web and the PGA. You would then need exemptions in place to move up?! Then there is the problem of people being moved into a tour they don't want to be in. Forcing that doesn't sound fun and I would think would turn a few people away from playing. FWIW here a Web win WGR points is equal to roughly a 6th place finish on the PGA. A CC-A win is like a top 5 or better on Web, and I'm not sure below that, but I would think it is similar until the lowest CC tiers. It would be more an unofficial 2-tier system. Guys would get an exemption from web and then think do I go for more points at the risk of stronger competition or go for easier competition at the expense of less points. Like real life really, geography not withstanding. Also, maybe the Web an CC places could be toned down a bit. Making the cut on top tours should be better than high place on CC-B for example. |
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Post by Roosroan on Sept 16, 2015 3:10:05 GMT -5
As a EURO, and with keeping in mind that tgctours wants to simulate the real golfing world, I still don't see the need for downgrading the EURO tour. What's the problem with 2 top tours?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 2:14:10 GMT -5
As a EURO, and with keeping in mind that tgctours wants to simulate the real golfing world, I still don't see the need for downgrading the EURO tour. What's the problem with 2 top tours? To be more like real life. PGA is clear number 1. The winner of a regular tour event averages 51 WGR points. The Euros average 33. That's about the same difference from Web to Euro (14 to 33). To give middle of the road Pro card holders the chance of victory. Do they take on the big guns of the PGA? Or take on the lesser field of the Euros? |
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Post by Roosroan on Sept 17, 2015 3:01:52 GMT -5
To be more like real life. PGA is clear number 1. The winner of a regular tour event averages 51 WGR points. The Euros average 33. That's about the same difference from Web to Euro (14 to 33). To give middle of the road Pro card holders the chance of victory. Do they take on the big guns of the PGA? Or take on the lesser field of the Euros? In real life PGA is the tour with a stronger field, due to the money involved. On tgctours money means nothing  I would be surprised and even a little dissapointed (just a little... it's a game after all) if the staff decides to downgrade EURO tour. I still haven't read a good reason, if the only argument is... the field is stronger on PGA so let's just make it a higher tour. So no crossing over, which is to me one of the perks of being a pga/euro player.. This season I saw a lot middle of the road PGA players cross over to EURO. The big guns of EURO crushed them. Let's just accept it as it is. As you say... a middle of the road PGA player wants a chance at a victory? Cross over to the EURO for a week and let's see what you got. You see a course that fit's your eye on the PGA? Go for it, Euro.. It's a matter of feel.. wanna play for more WGR on a presumably stronger field on a course you like? Take your chances. Or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 3:07:17 GMT -5
The money takes the big guns to the PGA Tour? The money means nothing in TGCTours? Exactly. That's why I proposed this in the first place. To simulate the better players being attracted to the PGA :-p
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Post by Roosroan on Sept 17, 2015 3:20:14 GMT -5
I'll get it. Won't agree because to me it's not a valid argument to split high level tours , but then again I understand the potential of one highest tour. Maybe a big EURO player can have his/(her?) say on this. Will he cross over? Is he a proud European? How does he like to be forced to leave his european buddies |
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Post by Brionne on Sept 17, 2015 13:56:01 GMT -5
I certainly would not like to be moved from the Euro tour. Majors are events that every player dreams of competing in. It is an honor and a privilege to be invited to an event like that and very rewarding after weeks of tough competition.. What makes them extra special is the coming together of all the top players in one event. They're the one's that count.. Having a 'major' field for every single event for all the top players is going to make the tour a grind for them, and near impossible for others to move up since the WGR points they'll earn will always be less than that of the #1 tour.. Something like that may just alienate PGA hopefuls causing them to leave. Majors will lose there appeal since it's just the same guys qualifying.. A 'major' every week.. won't be a major any more... just another tournament.. The WGR table will change very little.. The way it is now is good. More players can win events of the same standing in each tour, the WGR table shuffles a lot more and it's exciting to see the who swings the bigger stick at the Majors. We also get to crossover and mix it up with each other.. And it's much nicer to have more than one way to advance your WGR as opposed to being thrashed by Ian and Bradley every week and never moving up  The PGA is the #1 league in real life because of the prize money on offer. Money will always attract the big guns... On TGCTours, money is only useful for bragging rights and sorting out the end of season playoffs. As for the strength of field, I think the PGA is a little stronger than the Euro since there are currently 53 PGA, 45 EUR and 2 Web players in the top hundred.. PGA have 6 in the top 10... and 11 in the top 20. Also think about the size of the membership here... having 2 top tours makes sense to accommodate everyone.. We all want a piece of the pie... |
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Post by silap on Sept 17, 2015 13:57:49 GMT -5
Hmmm the more I think about this one the harder it gets. When I first read your post Luke I thought "Hell No!". But you have to understand I am a European Tour Fanatic, so don't be too offended by this. I do like people making suggestions to change TGC Tours for the better, even if I don't agree with them .. so I read your post(s) again and again. What I still don't like about it is the fact that you're using the SOF (WGR distribution) to put one tour over the other. The SOF is not a means to do stuff with, it's the result of where (mostly top) players choose to play / or not to play. In real life you will not see Rory McIlroy play in let's say the "AfrAsia Bank Mauritius Open". I (totally) do agree with you on that and there are numerous examples on the European Tour that share the same level of importance. Top players need 2/3 good results in bigger tournaments and some decent scoring in WGC's/Majors and they are in Race to Dubai final, just like that. Never mind the other 25/30 tournament they could have played on the European Tour; leave those to the (respectfully) lesser golfing gods. So how can we emulate real life tours, without putting one tour over the other by default? - Introducing a minimum # of tournaments to qualify for either playoff so players will have to crossover in order to qualify?
- Introducing a maximum # of tournaments for both tours combined, so people will have to manage their schedule? (I know, we all want to play each and every week, but ...)
- Use djdave's idea to fill in the blank spots to 156 per regular tournament
This way SOF and WGR points will sort themselves out.
Top EURO's can still enjoy playing their home tour.
And 'middle of the road' players will get their chances in tournaments with a lower purse.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 6:20:50 GMT -5
All good valid points. Good discussion guys.
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Post by silap on Sept 18, 2015 7:22:13 GMT -5
If a max. # of tournaments rule would be installed, maybe TGC Tours can provide their members with a Schedule Management Tool. Simplified it would look a little like this I think.  I made it universal so Web.com and CC members could use it as well.  |
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