Course Feedback - TDC Tone Top Mt.

[tonybaloney47]

I recently submitted my course, TDC Tone Top Mt. and it was denied the very next day. I was wondering if anyone would be so kind as to lend their opinions as to why this happened? I’m curious if it was an issue with my submission, and if not can anyone help point out the design flaws? I also am aware that there is a possibility the course just wasn’t “good” enough or whatever it may be, so please don’t be afraid to be direct. Thank you in advance I do appreciate it, hope you enjoy your round!

[fargo]

Hey Tony, I think you should spend a bit of time watching the video in the first post on this thread, and have a think about how these common issues relate to your course: tgctours.proboards.com/thread/400/courses-accepted-tours-watch-video

These are all common issues for newer designers (which is why the video exists). Instead of having someone go through hole by hole pointing out issues, it's really useful to try to understand these common issues and self-evaluate your course to see where they apply.

Just a couple quick examples with regard to sculpting problems that cause blindness, to get you started - you can't see the green-side bunkers on hole 1 from the fairway, you can't see anything at all off the tee on 5.

Also having the areas that you can see which are away from the holes just being bare auto-gen trees and rough doesn't do you any favours, but I'd consider the sculpting / blindness issues first.

[tonybaloney47]

I’ve watched the video, the blindness on 5 is intentional as I want you to drive over the hill. I also can’t imagine where you’re aiming that you’re seeing no trees or shrubbery?

[fargo]

Ok, so you're not interested in self evaluating the myriad issues that this course has. No worries, whatever floats your boat. I've done my best to point you in the right direction to help you to improve as a designer, but I've got no intention of taking this conversation further.

[tonybaloney47]

How can I self evaluate if I don’t know the issues the course has? I watched the video countless times and went through numerous drafts of this course before finally submitting it. Simply getting denied without any explanation is a little frustrating, I do apologize. If I’m not allowed to have the player drive over a hill, then I will take the hill out of the fairway on 5. You say the course has a myriad of issues I’m not willing to listen to, but I haven’t been told what they are.

[tonybaloney47]

I apologize if I was rude or abrupt. The whole point of this thread was that I have watched the video thoroughly and am at a loss as to why I got denied. I have done plenty of self evaluating I promise you, I’m now specifically looking for outside feedback. If I think i followed the guidelines and I didn’t that’s the real problem.

[fargo]

Tony the reason that I found it hard to believe that you've actually tried to understand that video and how it pertains to your course is because heaps of the stuff in that video is evident on virtually every hole. I do understand being defensive about what you've created, but take a step back and try looking at your course with an objective lens.

On the first hole, hit a driver down onto the (frankly quite strangely sculpted) fairway - now when the golfer is standing over the ball, what can you see? And try to take that view and match it up with some of the things Ben says in his video about sculpting issues, sightlines, and blindness. Have a look at every hole and every shot and you will see that the same problems repeat over and over again.

Play a bunch of courses that are used on tour here and think about how often those issues present themselves. If there is blindness, have a think about how the designer has used that, and in what situations it's appropriate. Is it used with a big unnatural lump like you have on hole 5 with a completely hidden trap just over the crest? Have a look at how more experienced designers tie the landscape together so as to make it look like an actual golf course on a real life piece of land.

Try playing your course without using scout-cam and think about how the course would present if this was a real life course. Have a look at photos and videos of real life golf courses.

This is what I mean about self-evaluation - I'm sincere when I tell you that there is no way that someone writing a list like - "hole 1, bunker is blind, hole 2, unnatural sculpting of the fairway, hole 3 strangely shaped green and blind bunkers" etc. is going to help you improve your courses if you don't think about what these things mean and how they are expressed on your own course.

[tonybaloney47]

To be completely honest with you I think we are at a disagreement. I know for a fact there isn’t blindness on just about every hole because I’ve played the course countless times. If you are hitting the ball up to an elevated area you wont see the bunkers up there that’s how physics works. You guys act like there are never hills blocking your sight lines in real life. This is fine you don’t need to keep going back and forth with me, I thought this whole process would have been much more enjoyable but what can you do. Thank you for your time

[tonybaloney47]

And critiques like “oddly sculpted” or “strangely shaped” is purely subjective. If you get to say no to my course because you think the fairway is odd then I’m good on trying to make courses for you guys

[fargo]

Tony I don't know why you're saying "you guys". I'm just some bloke who's trying to point you in a productive direction. I'm not affiliated with this site, I didn't review your course, I didn't give your course a "not approved" rating, and I'm the only one who has commented here.

If you can honestly and with an open mind look at your course and can't see the issues that Ben has taken his time to point out in a very instructional and clear video, and if you honestly an objectively can't see the deficiencies of your course as compared to the huge number of courses that do get approved here, then I agree with you - there's not much hope of improvement and there's not much point in continuing to submit courses here.

What a waste of time this has been.

[tonybaloney47]

Waste of time indeed

[trailducker]

If I was a the reviewer. Which I am not, I am a scheduler here. I wouldn’t waste my time with a play though offering my critiques because of how you treated Fargo who was only trying to help. If you can’t handle critiques then don’t ask for them. Simple as that.

[mattyfromcanada]

I reviewed this course for the database. Opened it up and could tell immediately with surfacing/sculpting/planting that the course wasn't there yet. I flew around for about 10-20 seconds then made my decision.

We get a lot of submissions. Once you've been doing this a while you can usually tell immediately.

It's all in the video.

[sroel908]

I am not a reviewer, but also schedule for TGCT and have been rangering course here for several years as well. Here are my thoughts...played Pin 3, blue tees, default conditions otherwise.

First off, 7,800 yards from the back tees immediately makes the course very long and means the tips would be out of the question for CC level play. Kind of limits its useability across all tours then. Just something to keep in mind.

Hole 1 - planting off to the left, by the clubhouse, seems auto-generated. There are just random bushes in mown grass. The green for this hole is very large in comparison to the hole length...it's a short-4 where I had 100 yards in on approach, but the green is some 40 yards wide. The green fringe on the course is super narrow and doesn't really make sense to be that small. And green speeds are set to 134 by default, which is the same as default Moderate speeds, so there is limited flexibility of adjusting conditions.

Hole 2 - more auto-gen bushes planted, this time in between tee boxes. Tall grasses are planted on what I assume is supposed to be a cart path. The bunker short and to the left of the green is poorly sculpted...looks like a bathtub, or a tub of ice cream with a scoop taken out of it.

Hole 3 - decent sightline off the tee. Bunker behind the green is again not sculpted well, as it's a large crater.

Hole 4 - design here is very awkward...first stretch of fairway is just a straight-away rectangle shape, then it is cut off by the cart path and a ginormous log, and then a huge, wide-open swath of fairway starts after it. Tall grasses are planted on light rough near the bunker on the left of the first section of fairway. The fairway beyond the log is sculpted aggressively, to the point where unintentional blindness occurs. I am 147 yards away on my approach to the green, and can see none of the green complex because the fairway is sloped like a half-pipe. The green itself again is massive, and is awkwardly shaped, with lobes and cut-ins, for no reason. And the putting surface is almost as flat as a tabletop...I lipped a 49-foot birdie putt that I didn't move the aim marker at all on.

Hole 5 - this is the last hole I played. Auto-gen planting is again in the sightline. Very odd hole design again, where a massive hill in the middle of the fairway is only there to obscure everything. If this is an intended design (as you seemed to indicate), it's not very interesting or enjoyable. At best, it's unintentional blindness, as the huge hill hides the green, fairway bunker, and basically everything beyond it. Strategically, it's a silly-easy drivable par-4 with zero danger, a huge green with no internal sloping, and is basically a very long par-3 that is kind of boring.

Let me just say this...the video in the OP has all this in it, as was told to you in previous posts on this thread. It's pretty clear to see these issues. Right on the first tee, there's auto-gen planting as you stand on the tee box. Bunkers were poorly sculpted, sculpting of greens and fairways was overdone in some spots, then flat as can be in others. Tall grasses are planted on playable surfaces, and scaling of greens is way off - the ones I played are all too large. Hole designs are not interesting and are a bit silly, and that was only in the first 5 holes of the course.

Aside from the course...the fact you asked for feedback with the disclaimer: "don’t be afraid to be direct", and then immediately went after fair and constructive feedback and criticism was kind of a bad look. Doubling down was worse. It would be wise to listen to the feedback offered here. And also...watch the video again.

Play other courses, like ones on tour here, and really compare your course to those. I'm afraid to say that within 1 or 2 holes on this course, the "Not Approved" review grade became pretty obvious. 

If you decide to build future courses, I hope you take this feedback - both about the course design and about listening to constructive criticism - to heart. It'll help you in all kinds of ways.

Good luck on future builds.

[bhazen]

Tony -

I wanted to respond to this thread just because as a new designer myself, feedback is so important to us getting better.  Just and FYI - I'm not a reviewer, I have never submitted a course for approval and I've only ever COMPLETED one course.  I do have over 800hrs on the designer in 2k21 and now 2k23.  I'm basically on this board everyday looking for tips, tricks and information myself.  Be aware, due to time constraints, the TGC group will not really help you with specifics other than point you to the countless videos their members have provided.  After seeing this thread, I felt compelled to take a look at your course and I played three holes and I do see what the TCG members are mentioning.  I'm going to go over briefly what they are mentioning because they don't have time to do it and I thought this would be a good exercise from myself to be able to identify these 'issues' on my own.

OK lets dive into it:



Two things here:
     1. I'm going to mention overall length.  The course itself is rather long from the tips.  Which can work in game, BUT the 1236 yard difference between the Red and Black tees is huge, and is going to cause problems with sightlines off the tee.  As a designer it is VERY difficult to create good sightlines from all the tee boxes, and if you have that much yardage between them your going to end up creating issues somewhere.
       2. The mix of holes lengths - you did a pretty good job EXCEPT you created the back nine to be much longer than the front by making both the par 3's and the par 5's longer.  I would have split the 3's and 5's where you have one long on the front and one long on the back.  That would have evened out your yardages.  And not make the player feel like they just hit the same shot prior.

These two items are just my personal preferences and TGC won't really take them into account but as a designer you want to made it as realistic as possible and that is something they do consider in the real world 

 Hole1 Tee Box:

For starters you can't see the fairway - as a player I have zero idea what is out there.  I would have staggered my tee boxes to the right or left and then lowered the ground in front of them giving you a visual of the fairway.  Show me what I'm hitting into.  Take a look at my Under Construction of Seven Bridges.  Page 2 discusses this exact sightline issue I had except I have water below and its a dogleg left.

Hole 1 Approach:

Here we are 106yds out in the fairway - my tee shot was perfect and I'm not rewarded for that.  To 'fix' this, I would have opened up the hill and shown the huge sand trap you have that is guarding the front of the green complex.  Why bother putting sand in front of the green?  I do like the planting, and the cart paths, and the hole design isn't bad, but the execution isn't very good.  Even if this is intentional, the DESIGN isn't very good.  I would have liked to have seen the green complex from 100yds out.  If I was blind 160-200yds I totally understand but I'm a Gap Wedge from the green.  What I would have done here is lower the green complex (but still make it uphill maybe 12ft), cleared out the planting in front of me, move dirt and lower the hills in front of you (make it less dramatic).  A perfect place for the green on this sightline is that tree to the left of the green (over by the 95%).  I can see a little spot up there that would have given you a great sightline for a complex.  (Or you could have raised the Fairway a little and that would have also helped you with your sightlines off the tee box.)

Hole2 Tee Box:


Not too bad, I like being able to see the target, the landing zone and the fairway here.  BUT again your are hiding a fairway bunker to the left in shadow.  You control the lighting in the game - this is where real life and game don't match.  In real life a bunker in that location is perfect and is fine in shadow.  In the game they don't want to see that.  What I'd do is use the control you have over the lighting and shade and Highlight that bunker off the tee.  Make it stand out by removing/moving the tree(s) and raise the backside of the trap (Actually I would have moved the trees to create shadow in front and behind the bunker almost framing it between light and shadow) a little more so it sitting there begging the player to not hit into it.  Let them know there's a hazard there. (DONT HIDE HAZARDS!).  Again I would have improved the sightlines here a little, by staggering the tee boxes better, that White Box takes away from the tee view you have from this box.

Hole2 Approach:


Honestly, you missed on this one - it has wonderful potential.  A reachable par5 for Eagle.  I love the shadows and light here, the cart path to the right, the depth BUT the greenside bunkers aren't sitting right to frame the green.  Again your sightlines are just a little off, lower the right side of the fairway to bring the bunker into view more on the right side.  (You see how its sitting in the sunlight?  That's perfect.)

Hole3 Tee:

Overall not a bad hole, Because of the length, I would have lowered the green complex a little giving you a better sightline to what's up there.  I can't see any bunkering or the shape of the green.  You've done a good job showing me the water and the danger there, but show me the green on a Par3.  As golfers, we all come to see the course.  I want to see my ball go in for a Hole in One on a par three.

I'm going to stop there - hopefully you get the idea of what they are looking for.  There's other things like the smoothing out the cart paths better, and blending your fairways so they aren't so drastic.  Overall plating is OK.  I'd strongly recommend on your next build that you spend more time on sightlines.  Move dirt your the measuring tool.  Don't be afraid to make changes.  Visualize then execute. 

Sample of a Hole design I'm currently working on:

This is just an example of how I start building a hole  - I'm using the measuring tool to check sightlines.  In this case I'm looking at the landing zone, placement of bunkers and the stream, how the green sits and how it is seen from the fairway, etc.  If you notice I've drawn lines from several locations so I can avoid unintentional blind spots.  This particular hole I've been working on for awhile (3hrs) trying to get everything perfect before I even place my green, fairway and bunkers.

Hopefully this is a little more helpful that what you'd normally get.  Remember everyone here does this for fun - Feedback is hard to get at times and sometimes its not fun hearing what others have to say.
Good luck in your future designs, I'm going to go finish playing the rest of your course.