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Post by bubbadave on Jan 31, 2023 14:17:32 GMT -5
Looking in on another conversation, it got me thinking. Do all bunkers have to be visible from tee or fairway? Elevated greens post a serious challenge if a bunker is located to the rear of the green. It's impossible to display a bunker in the rear of a green if the elevation is such as to preclude this. So here are some of my design thoughts on a course I am currently working on.
—Hole 1 has an elevated green, but from all of the tee locations, every bunker (2 on fairway, 3 around green) is visible. However, I'm giving each golfer a choice between hitting their tee shot to an elevated fairway or trying to carry the water to a secondary fairway. The risk/reward is two-fold. Choose the elevated fairway and the approach shot lays out the entirety of secondary fairway and green with all the bunkers clearly visible. This approach is a much longer one (170-200 depending on tee shot). Carrying the water is risky, depending on teebox, wind and length of driver, but makes it a pitch or short wedge to the elevated green. This also hides the bunker in the back of the green which might affect one of the hole placements. —Hole 8 has an elevated green which isn't visible from the tee shot because it doglegs around a butte. This green has visible bunkers on either side as seen from the fairway. I thought about a bunker to the rear, but I knew there wouldn't be any way to highlight it and make it visible from any location on the hole. Due to the terrain behind that green sloping steeply to the water, it just seemed more natural to force errant shots back up the slope to the green without adding the insult of a blind bunker.
This designing is driving me crazy, but is also enjoyable. I'm just trying to avoid pitfalls. Watching as many videos as I can, but sometimes it simply doesn't make it any easier, lol.
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Post by sroel908 on Jan 31, 2023 14:29:38 GMT -5
It's more about the bunkers and things being visible due to "intentional" sculpting and blindness vs. "unintentional" sculpting and blindness.
You don't have to be able to see everything, everywhere, all the time. But if things are blind, they need to be done in such a way where it's done with purpose.
This video from b101 highlights what this means:
And at this point, he shows examples:
It really comes down to the purpose and the care/attention. From your description, it sounds like you have ideas and reasons for your choices. When blindness is an issue, it's because it's just un-sculpted mounds, random non-sensical planting, or other areas where attention to detail is lacking that keeps things hidden - thus making it "unintentional".
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Post by rjwils30 on Feb 1, 2023 1:59:48 GMT -5
As they say “it’s only blind the first time round”. See St Andrews.
To some degree I think seeing fairway bunkers makes sense because they help shape the strategy of the hole. Bunkers on the sides and back of the green do not have to be visible. Think of Pine Valley. Almost every hole has a drop off into a bunker off the back.
I think it’s easy to over think and feel like there is some convention to adhere to but there’s always exceptions to rules.
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Post by sandgroper on Feb 1, 2023 4:51:11 GMT -5
Hitting over the back of an elevated green will bring the back bunker into sight! 🤣 (and probably play)
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Post by bubbadave on Feb 1, 2023 10:28:12 GMT -5
It's more about the bunkers and things being visible due to "intentional" sculpting and blindness vs. "unintentional" sculpting and blindness. You don't have to be able to see everything, everywhere, all the time. But if things are blind, they need to be done in such a way where it's done with purpose. And at this point, he shows examples: It really comes down to the purpose and the care/attention. From your description, it sounds like you have ideas and reasons for your choices. When blindness is an issue, it's because it's just un-sculpted mounds, random non-sensical planting, or other areas where attention to detail is lacking that keeps things hidden - thus making it "unintentional". Yes, I've reviewed that video a few times as well as a multitude of b101, crazy and duff videos. In fact, I think watching that video and crazy's initial "course menu" video are required viewing before I start a course. I haven't even released a course and I'm already worrying myself over the possibility of rejection. One thing is for certain, I "review" every course I play on to see what seems fair or not, which seems to be an evolution of sorts in my game and design strategies.
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Post by bubbadave on Feb 1, 2023 10:40:51 GMT -5
Hitting over the back of an elevated green will bring the back bunker into sight! 🤣 (and probably play) Indeed. Sometimes I think I'd rather hit that back bunker rather than the alternative. A few long misses on 2K21's House on the Cliff, for instance will cure one of hitting long.
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Post by rjwils30 on Feb 1, 2023 12:05:24 GMT -5
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Post by bubbadave on Feb 1, 2023 12:45:16 GMT -5
Thanks for this. I don't necessarily want to hide a bunker behind the green, but am thinking more of what happens on these elevated ones. The more I think about it, I think there might be more creative ways for imperiling tee shots and approaches than simply putting a pit of sand in the way. Most of the time I'm on 2K, I'm more apt to want to hit from a bunker (at least at distance), then say out of thick rough or around trees when my shot goes askew.
Getting some real world thoughts and examples, as presented in your link, is fantastic. Thank you.
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