woolmerc
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 117
TGCT Name: Chris Woolmer
Tour: Kinetic
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Post by woolmerc on Aug 4, 2022 10:03:00 GMT -5
Hi schmiff - some interesting thoughts. Just in case you didn't know, when you are cut, if you complete your final rounds your scores will still show up in the tournament at the top of the page, and you can see all the stats for those rounds - you just click on the scorecard link. But what I think you want, is for you to be ranked progressively against the others even when you are cut. Maybe a future enhancement may allow what you are after. You could add a button to the leaderboard screen that inserts you and cut players back into the scoring ladder. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, it's kind of a psychological thing I guess, but missing a cut and having your final 2 rounds mean nothing is discouraging, even though I'm aware you can still see your own scores. The whole point of playing online is so everyone can see how other people are scoring, and missing a cut kind of turns the last 2 rounds into a single player experience. Being able to manipulate your own view of the leaderboard doesn't really help with that if the default has dropped you from everyone else's view. This is just me thinking out loud - I'm aware there's no easy solution but I feel like it needs something tweaking. At the moment missing the cut just feels bad and each time I get promoted to Kinetic I rapidly lose interest until I'm demoted again because I only get 2 rounds that mean anything. The system shouldn't make players want to be demoted (or worse, deliberately DNF to get demo marks). Hi schmiff , understand what you are saying. I've never actually been up at the levels you are playing at (currently in CC-C) so hard for me to have an opinion on this. I started my great adventure shooting a 94 back in the qualifying event, finally getting my CC-L card and progressively improving. In doing so, I've made the cut maybe 85% of the time, and feel competitive most weeks. For me the promotion/demotion process has worked a charm. It sounds to me there's a bit of a step-up in difficulty between CC-A and Kinetic. Would that be right?
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Post by up mup kupen nup on Aug 4, 2022 10:35:38 GMT -5
I'm a member of the Dirtbags Ah yes, apologies! I should have mentioned the Dirtbags (and remembered your membership, as your nickname sounded familiar to me). They're an awesome group as well! I was a member of them back when I was in the CC ranks. I updated my initial post to include the Dirtbags as well. Cheers!
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Post by schmiff on Aug 4, 2022 10:41:11 GMT -5
Yeah, it's kind of a psychological thing I guess, but missing a cut and having your final 2 rounds mean nothing is discouraging, even though I'm aware you can still see your own scores. The whole point of playing online is so everyone can see how other people are scoring, and missing a cut kind of turns the last 2 rounds into a single player experience. Being able to manipulate your own view of the leaderboard doesn't really help with that if the default has dropped you from everyone else's view. This is just me thinking out loud - I'm aware there's no easy solution but I feel like it needs something tweaking. At the moment missing the cut just feels bad and each time I get promoted to Kinetic I rapidly lose interest until I'm demoted again because I only get 2 rounds that mean anything. The system shouldn't make players want to be demoted (or worse, deliberately DNF to get demo marks). Hi schmiff , understand what you are saying. I've never actually been up at the levels you are playing at (currently in CC-C) so hard for me to have an opinion on this. I started my great adventure shooting a 94 back in the qualifying event, finally getting my CC-L card and progressively improving. In doing so, I've made the cut maybe 85% of the time, and feel competitive most weeks. For me the promotion/demotion process has worked a charm. It sounds to me there's a bit of a step-up in difficulty between CC-A and Kinetic. Would that be right? Yeah, the thing with the cut system is that it's great when your game is on the up and you're improving - nothing beats that feeling of rising through the levels and I had a great time doing that. Once you reach your peak however, at least in my case, I end up bouncing back and forth between two divisions. It just so happens that for me those are CC-A and Kinetic (and yes it's a big step up for me mostly because I find the lack of lie grids very difficult). Ideally everyone would 'find their level' and the competition would be close enough that anyone could have a shot at a top 10 finish but could also end up with demo marks, but the reality is that the time spent in the upper division results in playing half as much golf on TGCT due to being cut almost every week, and having to look elsewhere for competition. Which in itself might not be a problem, but I love the idea behind TGCT and don't want to feel like I'm pulling away from it. Still, I'll continue to play my rounds each week, and hopefully I'll get the hang of the Kinetic settings one day
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Post by SkyBlueBen on Aug 4, 2022 12:25:38 GMT -5
What do you play when you're done with TGCTours for the week? I ask because there are many additional societies (some, like the Run Bad Tour or the Course Designer Tour, are even cross platform) where you could get to play rounds that 'mean something'. I recommend having a look at the board Societies & Commnuity Run Events to check if there's something fitting your needs. Of course, there are different degrees of 'meaning something', and we certainly agree that the TGCTours events are the most important ones. However, I'd say those community run society rounds (if played regularly) can still be considered more 'meaningful', than, say, a casual 1v1 against some online opponent or the 2K21 career mode. Maybe check out a team event like the Brew Crew? Here, all four CC rounds count AND are meaningful because you don't want to let your team down. Most societies also have an active Discord (the two I mentioned above, RBT and CDT, certainly have), where you can engage directly with other participants (instead of just passively looking at the TGCT leaderboard and writing an occasional forum post), thus massively improving your gaming experience. As a Platinum player not belonging to WGR 50 or above, I often miss cuts, and these community run societies and events provide incentives for spending more time with the game. I hope this helps a little. Cheers, Kevin Thanks Kevin, yes you're right there are other events to get involved in. I'm a member of the Dirtbags but it's on a break at the moment until the new season. However I'm not complaining that there aren't enough ways to play the game, just pointing out that any system that uses a cut will lead to player disengagement by its very nature. I'll be sure to check out those Discords though I hate the cut, all I want to do is play all 4 rounds and have them count. In The Brew Crew for this but would also like to see all my rounds count in CC. This is ultimately a game to be enjoyed not the PGA Tour, I get the Pro Tours having a cut but see no reason to mimic that over 12 divisions of CC. Best fun I have nowadays on official TGCT societies? TST. No cut and flights so you always have something to play for every week.
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Post by up mup kupen nup on Aug 4, 2022 12:34:00 GMT -5
They formerly had no cut line in CC. Maybe reintroducing that would be an option for next season?
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Post by SkyBlueBen on Aug 6, 2022 7:52:21 GMT -5
They formerly had no cut line in CC. Maybe reintroducing that would be an option for next season? Personally think CC needs a complete revamp but not sure Admin has the time to look at that or not.
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Post by up mup kupen nup on Aug 6, 2022 9:44:04 GMT -5
Personally think CC needs a complete revamp but not sure Admin has the time to look at that or not. A few weeks ago I formulated this idea in some other thread: I honestly don’t care about Master or Pro, but, going by the numbers, I think the majority of players (including those without a forum account) prefer Pro. In contrast, count me in for revising the distribution of courses! You can split the four existing societies into something like: Pro Tours, A to D, E to H, and I to L, or, if you want to leave Plat alone: Plat, Elite to B, C to G, H to L. This, in particular the first option, would also benefit the designers, as it would close the gap in number of plays between CC and Pro Tour courses. I‘m not sure if this is the right thread for all these ideas, though, as Tim initially just asked for opinions on the handicap idea. I think there should be a more balanced distribution of courses across tours. In my opinion, the only Tour where a tailored course selection is justified because of the jump in skill level is Platinum. Behind Plat, have one course for each 4-5 flights. 👍
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Post by SkyBlueBen on Aug 6, 2022 9:49:46 GMT -5
Personally think CC needs a complete revamp but not sure Admin has the time to look at that or not. A few weeks ago I formulated this idea in some other thread: I honestly don’t care about Master or Pro, but, going by the numbers, I think the majority of players (including those without a forum account) prefer Pro. In contrast, count me in for revising the distribution of courses! You can split the four existing societies into something like: Pro Tours, A to D, E to H, and I to L, or, if you want to leave Plat alone: Plat, Elite to B, C to G, H to L. This, in particular the first option, would also benefit the designers, as it would close the gap in number of plays between CC and Pro Tour courses. I‘m not sure if this is the right thread for all these ideas, though, as Tim initially just asked for opinions on the handicap idea. I think there should be a more balanced distribution of courses across tours. In my opinion, the only Tour where a tailored course selection is justified because of the jump in skill level is Platinum. Behind Plat, have one course for each 4-5 flights. 👍 I'd go further. Pro Tours should be Master level and then split CC between those who want to play Master and those who want to play Pro. No promotion between the two and the only way to get to the Pro Tours would be via CC Master. Course wise as now for the Pro Tours plus one for CC Master and one for CC Pro.
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Post by up mup kupen nup on Aug 6, 2022 9:53:23 GMT -5
I'd go further. Pro Tours should be Master level and then split CC between those who want to play Master and those who want to play Pro. No promotion between the two and the only way to get to the Pro Tours would be via CC Master. Course wise as now for the Pro Tours plus one for CC Master and one for CC Pro. That was already in place for… I think it was TGC2? And I believe it didn’t work out well. I don’t remember the exact issue though. Maybe someone else can help. I am pretty sure that the admins are not keen on reintroducing that, though.
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Post by SkyBlueBen on Aug 6, 2022 10:13:33 GMT -5
I'd go further. Pro Tours should be Master level and then split CC between those who want to play Master and those who want to play Pro. No promotion between the two and the only way to get to the Pro Tours would be via CC Master. Course wise as now for the Pro Tours plus one for CC Master and one for CC Pro. That was already in place for… I think it was TGC2? And I believe it didn’t work out well. I don’t remember the exact issue though. Maybe someone else can help. I am pretty sure that the admins are not keen on reintroducing that, though. I wasn't around for TGC2 but we had a split in PGA19 where you were able to choose difficulty and it was all mixed into CC Pro and CC Am. Problem there was when someone got promoted from CC-A that was playing Pro was then forced into Master which didn't suit some. I can't speak for TGC2 but can't see an issue if Master and Pro are separated. Players that get to the top of CC-Pro wouldn't be able to rise any further unless they took up Master. Players that get to the top of CC-Master get to play the Pro Tours. Not sure of how many current CC players would choose to play Master. I know I'm sick of desperately trying to get double figures under par at Pro level just to nudge the cutline in CC-C. I'd give Master a shot after enjoying the level in the NFL Stableford for starters.
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Post by gatorman on Aug 6, 2022 16:43:55 GMT -5
They need a one time reorganization of all CC tiers based on the last months scoring. There shouldn't be people in I or J shooting 45-50 under I could not agree more with this statement. Being in CC-i, which should be a duffer level, the top scores are Platinum level. How players that can shoot that low play in CC-I remains a mystery to me.
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Post by greyosprey on Aug 6, 2022 18:04:27 GMT -5
That was already in place for… I think it was TGC2? And I believe it didn’t work out well. I don’t remember the exact issue though. Maybe someone else can help. I am pretty sure that the admins are not keen on reintroducing that, though. I wasn't around for TGC2 but we had a split in PGA19 where you were able to choose difficulty and it was all mixed into CC Pro and CC Am. Problem there was when someone got promoted from CC-A that was playing Pro was then forced into Master which didn't suit some. I can't speak for TGC2 but can't see an issue if Master and Pro are separated. Players that get to the top of CC-Pro wouldn't be able to rise any further unless they took up Master. Players that get to the top of CC-Master get to play the Pro Tours. Not sure of how many current CC players would choose to play Master. I know I'm sick of desperately trying to get double figures under par at Pro level just to nudge the cutline in CC-C. I'd give Master a shot after enjoying the level in the NFL Stableford for starters. Welcome to CC pergatory, SkyBlueBen . I don't know the exact numbers, but I would guess at least 75%, if not more, of all CC players will never leave CC. They reach a level, plateau, and either maintain their position, or slowly start to fall back down the ladder. Lots of issues in CC like 1600+ players all playing the same course (compared to 480 playing 3 courses on the Pro tours), "fast tracking" not occurring fast enough, and nothing to play for once you plateau. Outside of giving CC a second course, I think a simple change that would give CC players something to look foward to is CC majors. Nobody is going to confuse the CC Masters Champion with the Pro tour Masters Champion. Throw the "fillers" a bone and let them have their own majors. I have no idea if it would require any special coding/programming. It may be as simple as just scheduling it and saying "hey, this week is the CC <insert major here>". Again, just gives CC players something to look forward to. I've seen Masters mentioned a few times. I don't know if the game has improved enough on Xbox to make Masters a viable option for most players. I think the distribution of consoles on various tours and weekly results show that while the game has improved on Xbox, it's still very difficult for the vast majority to compete against PS. And that's on Pro Pro difficulty. I don't see how going back to Masters changes that. In thinking outside the box, there might be a solution that would hopefully appeal to the masses. I present this not knowing how much coding, programming, etc would be involved. Just throwing it against the wall. And it may be too "radical" an idea for anyone to give it much thought. Make the pro tours 1 society and split it into tiers like CC. Yes, they would play the same course, just like CC! This frees up 2 societies. Take those 2 societies and make another Pro and CC society. There would now be 2 Pro and 2 CC societies. Make 1 Pro/CC society Masters difficulty; make the other Pro/CC society Pro difficulty. Use tiers, if necessary, in the respective societies. This doesn't directly address the issue of 1600 people playing 1 course in CC, but depending on which difficulty people decided to play, it may not be necessary to have a secondary course on CC. If there was still a need for a 2nd CC society at one difficulty, use the TBD society. OR.......use the TBD society for a LEGEND TOUR!!! Again, I have no idea as to the amount of coding, programming, etc that it would take to do this. It simply may not be feasible. I don't know if coding/programing that is already in place can be copied and pasted or not. I'm just throwing it out there. And It could be admin is content with the current format and doesn't feel the need to make any changes, or doesn't want different difficulties. Also, if/when the new game drops, who knows how many societies TGCTours will be given or if they continue to have access to API data. Admin may wish to stand pat until that is more clear. Sorry for the long post. Oh, and I'm in the camp that CC shouldn't have cut lines.
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Post by Brenelan on Aug 6, 2022 21:09:59 GMT -5
They need a one time reorganization of all CC tiers based on the last months scoring. There shouldn't be people in I or J shooting 45-50 under I could not agree more with this statement. Being in CC-i, which should be a duffer level, the top scores are Platinum level. How players that can shoot that low play in CC-I remains a mystery to me. Those are generally newer players that are passing through, right? There's still plenty of promo marks available if you get in the top section of your flight. I mean, if you don't promote over time, doesn't that just mean you're in the proper tier currently? I've moved from CC-L to CC-G this season, and have found myself mostly making cuts, but finishing outside the promo mark line. I'm also not practicing as much as I probably need to to move up at this point. Guess I don't understand why this is a TGC problem. Some players are just better or working harder. Isn't that the point of a tournament setting?
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Post by Craig / Hendomedes on Aug 7, 2022 3:33:21 GMT -5
They need a one time reorganization of all CC tiers based on the last months scoring. There shouldn't be people in I or J shooting 45-50 under I could not agree more with this statement. Being in CC-i, which should be a duffer level, the top scores are Platinum level. How players that can shoot that low play in CC-I remains a mystery to me. It's just a consequence of the drop in difficulty to Pro, this. Coupled with the gentler courses on CC. It's been fantastic for participation and absolutely the right call in that regard but has, imo, removed a lot of the differentiation in scoring across skill levels. Edit: maybe more accurate to say it has drastically lowered scoring across all divisions.
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Post by martbloke on Aug 7, 2022 5:21:52 GMT -5
Change the format! 1st 2 rounds normal to see who makes the cut. Reset the scores and go handicap for 3/4 to give anyone a chance to win or normal for 3 and then a FedEx Tour champs style starting scores for the 4th to tighten the field for all and increase the chance of peeps climbing up or falling down the ladder.
Just some thoughts to keep it entertaining for all and moreso those just above the cut but feel they've no chance at promo marks or the win and in dead man's land.
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