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Post by shotstone on Mar 18, 2021 20:25:38 GMT -5
Sleepy Hollow post restoration is absolutely brilliant. Can't speak to it before the restoration, but some of the holes there are absolute stunners. Hanse really had to undo a bunch of terrible decisions from reese jones, jones' remodel of the course was just all-around terrible To destroy a course like that is a shame. I'm curious of the membership greens committee had any hand in that mistake?
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Mar 19, 2021 9:51:13 GMT -5
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Post by shotstone on Mar 19, 2021 10:29:57 GMT -5
Seems like an easy $100k to me. "Let me inspect the property, design, etc. for my consulting fee and I'll draw up recommendations." *Two weeks later* "It's a masterpiece and work of art. Don't touch a thing. My bill is in the mail."
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 19, 2021 10:40:54 GMT -5
I remember listening to Rees Jones on a podcast back in 2019, and I was struck by his obliviousness to criticism. He believes criticism from players means they probably played bad, and he doesn't listen to "critics" because he would rather "listen to the players", which makes no sense. And when given the chance to name a favorite modern course or give anyone a shout out at all, he couldn't come up with anything, simply saying that he likes almost every course, because he likes golf so much. He also doesn't pay attention to rankings, because he thinks a lot of the best courses aren't played enough or don't get enough attention.
So in a nutshell, he's completely aloof.
As far as Nicklaus goes, I think his courses are fine enough to play in video games. He definitely has an eye for strategy, and knows how to make a course challenging. Just look at Concession. I don't know if he makes courses that are fun for most people to play, though. And I was struck by the fried egg's description of the Catch Basin Championship at Concession. You make a bunch of catch basins when you don't know how to properly drain a golf course, and then every miss around the green ends in the same catch basin. Once you start noticing them, it is alarming when a course uses a ton of them as a crutch for drainage. Thinking back, a course I worked on when I was younger did the same thing.
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Post by shotstone on Mar 19, 2021 11:09:16 GMT -5
I remember listening to Rees Jones on a podcast back in 2019, and I was struck by his obliviousness to criticism. He believes criticism from players means they probably played bad, and he doesn't listen to "critics" because he would rather "listen to the players", which makes no sense. And when given the chance to name a favorite modern course or give anyone a shout out at all, he couldn't come up with anything, simply saying that he likes almost every course, because he likes golf so much. He also doesn't pay attention to rankings, because he thinks a lot of the best courses aren't played enough or don't get enough attention.
So in a nutshell, he's completely aloof.
I have only played one Rees course - Daniel Island Club in Charleston, SC. I remember at the time really enjoying it (but given the scenery hard not to). Though if memory serves me correct there were a few holes that perplexed me and were a bit goofy... That particular attitude seems very, as you said, disconnected. If people (regular players) had complaints about my course I'd want to know. I personally feel like a lot of golf design has gotten away from making the game enjoyable for the average golfer. Trying to make things longer and harder. That seems to really hurt longevity and growth. Most people don't want to go out and get the sh%$ kicked out of them even if the setting is pretty.... My two-cents anyway.
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Post by jwfickett on Mar 19, 2021 12:34:51 GMT -5
Ogilvy, Cocking, and Mead (OCM Design) are doing some fantastic stuff in Australia and Asia. They just got tapped to work on Medinah #3. www.ocm.golf/Riley Johns and Keith Rhebb's work for C&C and their original stuff at Winter Park and Par 3 Course at Forest Dunes show they just need more opportunities to shine. Landmand will be a turning point for King-Collins, but they have other projects forthcoming, too. Brazenhead in Mississippi, Overland Park in Memphis, a 9 hole addition in Accord, NY, and possibly a job in Texas. They're a team you're going to be seeing a lot more going forward. Hopefully, Landmand is as good as it looks from early construction and they can get propelled into the conversation among the new resort development circuit with C&C, Hanse, McLay-Kidd, Doak.
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Post by shotstone on Mar 19, 2021 15:09:36 GMT -5
Ogilvy, Cocking, and Mead (OCM Design) are doing some fantastic stuff in Australia and Asia. They just got tapped to work on Medinah #3. www.ocm.golf/Riley Johns and Keith Rhebb's work for C&C and their original stuff at Winter Park and Par 3 Course at Forest Dunes show they just need more opportunities to shine. Landmand will be a turning point for King-Collins, but they have other projects forthcoming, too. Brazenhead in Mississippi, Overland Park in Memphis, a 9 hole addition in Accord, NY, and possibly a job in Texas. They're a team you're going to be seeing a lot more going forward. Hopefully, Landmand is as good as it looks from early construction and they can get propelled into the conversation among the new resort development circuit with C&C, Hanse, McLay-Kidd, Doak. Checking out the OCM website and they have some stunners there! I'd be curious how they play. Are they as rewarding from a golf perspective as from a beauty standpoint?
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Post by jwfickett on Mar 19, 2021 15:31:44 GMT -5
It certainly sounds like it. Every time I hear Geoff Ogilvy discuss architecture on podcasts, he definitely "gets it."
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Post by hickoryghost on Mar 28, 2021 0:42:34 GMT -5
Besides the ones mentioned already, I'm a big Kyle Phillips fan. Kingsbarns, Dundonald, YAS Links, Verdura, Bernardus, and South Cape Owners Club.
The renovations at Cal Club and Morfontaine are great as well.
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Post by shotstone on Mar 28, 2021 1:05:21 GMT -5
Besides the ones mentioned already, I'm a big Kyle Phillips fan. Kingsbarns, Dundonald, YAS Links, Verdura, Bernardus, and South Cape Owners Club. The renovations at Cal Club and Morfontaine are great as well. I absolutely love the look of kingsbarns! I'll have to look into the others! Tha KS for the tip
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Post by csugolfer60 on Mar 29, 2021 7:24:49 GMT -5
I remember listening to Rees Jones on a podcast back in 2019, and I was struck by his obliviousness to criticism. He believes criticism from players means they probably played bad, and he doesn't listen to "critics" because he would rather "listen to the players", which makes no sense. And when given the chance to name a favorite modern course or give anyone a shout out at all, he couldn't come up with anything, simply saying that he likes almost every course, because he likes golf so much. He also doesn't pay attention to rankings, because he thinks a lot of the best courses aren't played enough or don't get enough attention.
So in a nutshell, he's completely aloof.
As far as Nicklaus goes, I think his courses are fine enough to play in video games. He definitely has an eye for strategy, and knows how to make a course challenging. Just look at Concession. I don't know if he makes courses that are fun for most people to play, though. And I was struck by the fried egg's description of the Catch Basin Championship at Concession. You make a bunch of catch basins when you don't know how to properly drain a golf course, and then every miss around the green ends in the same catch basin. Once you start noticing them, it is alarming when a course uses a ton of them as a crutch for drainage. Thinking back, a course I worked on when I was younger did the same thing.
To the earlier point - 99% of criticism of a golf course of good players is usually because they played bad. This is coming from being on multiple sides of this, and occasionally doing it myself. Generally, “listening to the players” (at least Tour pros) and doing the opposite of what they want is a good way to create a great championship golf course. I’ll always be a Dye junkie, but IMO Rees Jones creates some of the best tests for great players. Totally agree about the catch basin thing - not so much for the drainage thing (cause natural drainage really doesn’t make a difference in modern age), but because I hate hitting out of 50 chunk flop divots after the ball finishes in the same f***ing spot every time.
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Post by alejandroacantilado on Apr 1, 2021 20:02:16 GMT -5
I grew up playing bethpage, and though I will give Rees Jones credit for some genuinely great bunkering, I can only imagine what the black course restoration would have been in the hands of a competent architect. The narrow corridors are a crime, and they missed the opportunity to really unearth the sandy nature of the terrain. The second part is understandable given the number of rounds the course endures each year, but the 25 years wide fairways are painful.
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Post by b101 on Apr 6, 2021 2:54:29 GMT -5
The more I read, the more I appreciate Mike Clayton's views on golf course architecture. Great example below - a quick look at his portfolio is certainly impressive, too: Barnbougle Dunes & St Andrews Beach (both w/Doak), redesign of Peninsula Kingswood (North and South) and Victoria. Espouses width, angles, playability, bold features and clearly has a great visual flair - just look at any hole at Peninsula Kingswood, which I believe required a substantial remodel. The article below popped up on my Twitter feed this morning - he comes across (imo) as by a mile the wisest voice on that panel. golftoday.co.uk/behind-the-architectural-curtain-augusta-national-masters-2021/
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