theboldb
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 143
Tour: Beer League/TST
|
Post by theboldb on Mar 2, 2021 5:59:15 GMT -5
I have a tendency to design holes to be best experienced from the back tees, because I assume most players play from that tee set. I realise that in a real life course, the different tee sets are there to make the course play well for different abilities, but in this game, even a beginner can drive over 270 yds. So, my two questions are
1) Do you design primarily for the back tee player 2) Do you think most people play from the back tees?
|
|
|
Post by cd06 on Mar 2, 2021 6:20:25 GMT -5
1. Yes - I play with the longest clubs in the game I know of (295 driver, 248 3 wood, 230 5 wood, 205 4 iron etc.) so I really don't see much point. There are some people who design from forward tees - take Jerry Shields' dreadful Storm King, for example - but I don't. I have a 254 yard par three on my Design League WIP and I have only been playing it off the back tee set. 2. Yes - however, there are a couple of exceptions. Either a) the course is stupidly long, although I haven't played many of those, or b) the designer used the tee manipulation trick ( Q). For example, 15eicheltower9's Knob's Creek has two sets of manipulated tees where the green tees, supposedly the back tees, are 6935 yards, and the red tees, or the front tees, measure 7013 yards. Most courses have the standard tee order, but I make an exception if there is tee manipulation involved. Even on South Yarra, where the manipulated tees go down in length, I still play from the three different tee sets there each time, as I know they all provide a similar challenge with some small mix ups.
|
|
|
Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Mar 2, 2021 8:05:15 GMT -5
Double YES here.
As a lightweight note, I stew over placing a ball washer and/or bench at each tee so players will see it in-game, in the guise of atmosphere, or just putting one at the entrance to the main teeing area.
|
|
slottie
Weekend Golfer
Nazca Sandhills... go play it you fools
Posts: 95
TGCT Name: Oliver Slot
Tour: Kinetic
|
Post by slottie on Mar 2, 2021 21:23:48 GMT -5
If you don't play a course from the tips who even are you anyway... jk teehee
|
|
|
Post by lessthanbread on Mar 2, 2021 21:52:51 GMT -5
I don’t know of any designer that doesn’t design from the back tees. In looking at the ghost set up menu, you can see which tees people are playing from. From what I’ve seen it’s pretty even between front and back tees. Far less people play from middle tees but yeah you’d be surprised how many people play from the fronts
|
|
|
Post by yeltzman on Mar 3, 2021 4:38:12 GMT -5
All depends if you are designing for TGC tours or the 2 million who have brought the game, Like the above poster says i think its about 50% on my courses players either play the back or the front tees.Only thing i am not sure about if the players play the front tees on purpose or they don't know how to change the tees.
If you want your course on tgc tours i would say the front tees not really worth worrying about.Got to be honest little bit of a bug bear of mine when there is only 1 tee on the course.
|
|
|
Post by ddixjr509 on Mar 3, 2021 11:19:07 GMT -5
yes and yes. I've noticed on my previous courses that the "Front" tees were being solely used by the "arcade" guys who use beginner clubs and shoot -24/ round. There seems to be a large group here- that in the absence of Tiger EA- enjoy the ego boost of going sub par every hole.
I've now eliminated "front" tees- I'm designing with 2 sets of tees (both "Championship" tees)- but both yardages will be pretty close with the major difference being angles off the tees. The goal is for the two tee sets to provide an entirely different playing/ strategy experience.... My WCOD course will be +/-6950y from back, and +/-6875y from 2nd set.
|
|
|
Post by virtualgolfer65 on Mar 3, 2021 13:13:01 GMT -5
My courses to this point have four tees and I design the hole with all of them in mind.
I draw out the hole (green fairway, hazards, etc) and then place the tees after. The placement of tees is almost always based on angles, with the front tees having a more open look at the fairway, etc.
I think the hole design should remain and you simply adjust for better angles for the front tees and increasingly make them more difficult for the longer tees. You have to adjust, playtest, readjust, re-playtest, etc until you find the optimum balance.
What I like about four tees is that you can have the course play differently and strategies really come into play. Holes that are unreachable from the tips are suddenly able to be reached, but is the risk worth it? Undrivable par 4's suddenly have an option for going for it, but at what risk?
I realize almost everyone plays societies and courses at the back tees, but there is a lot of benefit to playing from the front or other tees. Suddenly there is stress on hitting wedges and short irons close to make birdies. I do this in real life and suddenly you're playing a different strategy for the course based on the tees.
Most players won't give a hoot about the tees, but I want my design to be appreciated as a work of art, rather than just cranking out courses.
|
|
|
Post by parttimejaffa on Mar 3, 2021 13:35:23 GMT -5
I'll often play from most if not all tees if a course impresses me on first playthrough (always initial playthroughs are from the tips), although experience alters greatly to how interesting the rounds & holes become from there on. If not just for that sheer added fun and potential further admiration and appreciation of total quality and its designer, but to also get ideas & inspiration for my own designing along the way; I must say I do admire a leven, greatly, or a peach sub-400 yard par 4 that really makes you think or quality shorter mid-length par 4's that some holes can become from the shorter tees, or also that par 5 that plays drastically different but just as good from tee to tee. Currently I am balls deep in designing courses of par 64-68 & am always on the lookout for that next piece of ingenuity that I can draw some form of inspiration from, and also repeatedly marvel at & enjoy! Playing solely no grids and the welcomed addition of partial shots and the large gap between PW & 9i I've been allowed to select is a real god send here for interest, I feel that should be noted, as prime difficulty & proper challenge is always around the greens & altered club sets. Playing the likes of Royal Cinque Ports, Hunstanton, Wallasey, Formby, Hesketh, Old Rye, just to name a few, from forward tees offers some great variation to holes & doesn't necessarily mean that because the hole is shorter it is any less compelling, strong, or I guess, easier. This I can not applaud enough with these courses & others of the same type and calibre, RCR and fictional, as there are genuine, multiple ways to play and enjoy, equally or damn close. To me that pushes a design to the next level. Taking hole 1 at RCP just for an example playing from forward tees brings the water into play more and more the further up you go & with or without a stiff tail wind will ask different and tougher questions of your opening shot. With the (likely) shorter approach & playing to a front-right pin just behind the water especially just adds another element to a ridiculously fantastic opening golf hole with an amazing green. This is just one example of many. When designing myself I obviously will begin working from the green back, thinking what angle(s) and lengths of approach I roughly want in, what pins will be tougher and require more varied accuracy from the shot that comes before it, will a missed fairway either side make the hole too brutal for its positioning in the round etc. All the shite you already know, but inevitably this will for the majority of the time all change in relation with my tee positionings as the hole & course evolves. I guess what I'm getting at is I do not like at all to root myself into my initial idea of where my back tee or all tee's are, and am open for change along the way & also don't necessarily have my ultimate favourite or what I think 'best tee' for the hole always sitting at the tips. For me it becomes a matter of compromise & what type, difficulty and length of hole comes prior and follows, and trying to keep things enjoyable and interesting for all sets is priority. Flow of all rounds takes a greater importance here and keeping the forward tees in mind while designing will push my holes into different and often better directions & visuals, as opposed to creating from just one spot 18 times. The adaptation and change is one of my very favourite parts, albeit time consuming and trying to nail that perfect hole for 3 or 4 tee's on the umpteenth try is enjoyment personified. The only exception I find here is my opening hole, a par 4 handshake hole with enough strategy, I design this one from the tee forward & don't feel the need to make further or drastic changes. Being conscious of space and routing is another knock-on factor, not backing myself into corners, with tight teeing areas for multiple holes getting that extra care. One of the (many) things I love about the Links courses is the cross-bunkering that occurs three-quarters to four-fifths of the way up the golf hole. You just know from the tips if you miss the fairway on certain holes they are going to become a right pain on your second shot, but also the further up the line you go the more they come into play from the tee, & that initial hazard(s) at or near Driver length from the back becomes a whole different beast if you feel the need to club down or face certain winds. Blindness & how it factors into strategy & difficulty from tee to tee is another part I also so much appreciate on these Links, taking again RCP's holes 3 & 15 just for example with a high wind from the east will highlight the adoring nuainces from Black tee's to Blue. Incredible this all occurs in the one golf hole. As a fellow Bedroom Doak talking and working in pixels I much prefer & appreciate a course that can be played from multiple tee's and aspire to bring that to my own creations. So answer to Question 1 for me is no, and to add to that the only player I'm thinking about is myself. Answer to Question 2 is probably, maybe, I dunno, what do I care what someone else decides to do with their own time and their game. Cheers from the bush.
|
|
theboldb
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 143
Tour: Beer League/TST
|
Post by theboldb on Mar 4, 2021 9:47:39 GMT -5
Thanks for these responses, I appreciate the different answers you all gave. I suppose something I've often found frustrating as a player is that a lot of courses are far too easy from the front tees, so I have a tendency to play and design primarily with the back tees in mind, because I've been conditioned to playing only from the back. Like most of you, my final tee placements are flexible right until the final moments of designing. I've changed angles and distances loads of times for each tee set. I think I need to give more consideration to how a course plays strategically from the front tees. I design from the green backwards as a general rule too.
|
|
|
Post by HoneyBadgerHacker on Mar 5, 2021 20:19:52 GMT -5
I design from the back tees but also try my best to think what my tee shot would do with a heavy tail wind behind me. Kills two birds with one stone really if you think about it. If someone is playing the middle or shorter tees and you designed a bunker 330 yards from the back tees it would come into play for shorter tees.
|
|
lucheyschoe
Weekend Golfer
I play golf....very badly...... And Design on Xbox
Posts: 141
|
Post by lucheyschoe on Mar 15, 2021 13:58:14 GMT -5
I just learned the value of the three different tees. I was thinking about it in real life terms, of what I see on a local golf course. Back tees for the big boys. White tees for the normal mortals. Gold for seniors and red for the forward tees. In the game, most (nearly all) TGC Tours Events are held from the back tees. So I design from the back tees, then move the forward tees around to provide different looks to the fairway and provide different obstacles and hazards they might present. The main thing is to make them all different looks. Not just moving them forward like I used to do, and what we see on local course.
|
|
theboldb
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 143
Tour: Beer League/TST
|
Post by theboldb on Mar 15, 2021 15:25:58 GMT -5
I usually make the angles easier from the easier tees, like positioning them to straighten out dog legs.
|
|
|
Post by ritchieboyroy on Mar 18, 2021 7:53:26 GMT -5
yes and yes. I've noticed on my previous courses that the "Front" tees were being solely used by the "arcade" guys who use beginner clubs and shoot -24/ round. There seems to be a large group here- that in the absence of Tiger EA- enjoy the ego boost of going sub par every hole. I've now eliminated "front" tees- I'm designing with 2 sets of tees (both "Championship" tees)- but both yardages will be pretty close with the major difference being angles off the tees. The goal is for the two tee sets to provide an entirely different playing/ strategy experience.... My WCOD course will be +/-6950y from back, and +/-6875y from 2nd set. I like this thought a lot. Multiple tees, roughly same distance just varied angles to give more replay
|
|