|
Post by trailducker on Jan 25, 2021 14:03:17 GMT -5
I think the other thing being lost in translation here from Ben and the others is also the amount of occurances as well as compounding other issues. Anders I think in your head you're talking more specific sceneros but in their head they are referring more to overall reoccuring issues on courses they review. My understanding is if the reviewer sees sculpting issues throughout the course (not related to the blindness in particular) then that leads to the blindness being unintentional because sculpting is a problem throughout. Also I assume great sculpting throughout and one unintentional blind shot somewhere is not an immediate grounds for non-approval but often when they see someone with unintentional blindenss it occurs multiple times on a course so it's a factor in the non-approval. That's where they say thsoe "intimidating" or intentional blind shots are very crafted by the designer to drive home THIS IS A BLIND SHOT FOR A REASON to the golfer. Whether it's a wayward tree behind or rock in front, or directiong tress/hills on the sides as well as a forgiving landing zone. Hopefully I'm not conflating the conversation here, just trying to connect both trains of thoughts I am seeing. I discuss blindness, not the database. However the reason given for blindness off the tee makes me question the critique on blindness on fantasy courses. So far, the only reason for blind tee shots has been "thrilling excperience". No strategic reason at all. For me as a golfer - that is no good reason. Ofcourse no problem to disagree. The other problem with this in real life, is the real danger that people are in the landing area you don't see (which is of no concern in a video golf game). If a blind tee shot due to a blocking hill is fine if it is intentional - but not fine if it is unintentional - I think this is confusing and inconsistent. And how can you tell if it is intentional or not? No answer to that so far. You may assume it is unintentional or intentional - but how can you know for certain? Mind reading? Make up your mind - is a blind tee shot thrilling or not? What do intention of the designer matter? The blocking hill is the same if it is intentional or not. Let me tell you of an eagle I made on a par 4 at La Cala golf resort, Asia course in Spain. I was in the middle of the fairway. Perfect tee shot. From my lie in the fairway, I could see the flag - but not the green. Hit a great shot - and when we got to the green, we all looked and could not understand why we didn't see my ball. Took some time before we found it in the cup. My experience on that hole - was that I was robbed to see the shot go into the hole. I know this is part of golf - but for me - that was not thrilling - it was a feeling of robbery for my experience. It is not everyday you hole a 130 yard shot. Others may have completely different experience on such a shot. It was not completely blind as I could see the flag - but the thrill of seeing the ball land and roll in the hole. There was no strategic reason not to see the green on that hole (downhill from fairway) - but they would have needed to remove some land in order for us to do so. This is ofcourse expensive I'm going to try to not go into a long response, I'll just say there's been plenty answers so far to this question it's just not quite what you want to hear which is fine. Is it a little "in the eye of the beholder" and has levels of subjectivity? Yes, but everything about this does. I had a leaning tree in front of one of my greens on my first course and while doing a play through 15eichel said some reviewers will hate this but he's fine with it. If you have an intentional blind shot or one unintentionally made but you decided to keep it then add that to the description so the reviewer is aware and can assess it's effectivity. There isn't a balck and white answer here because it's not a black and white issue (as most things in life aren't). You just have to have intentionality and thought living in the gray area and how you translate that to the golfer is a part of being a good designer. I'm an architect and how you design wayfinding in a large building (currently working on a large high school remodel) and make it intuative is part of the job as a designer. It's the same thing here on golf courses. Thats's all everyone here is saying.
|
|
|
Post by charliehustle on Jan 25, 2021 14:06:24 GMT -5
By your description of the hole, it does seem like there was strategic reason for the blind shot. Downhill fairway means you could have layed-up and had an unobstructed view of the green and a CHANCE to experience a hole-in for all of it's glory. You assumed the risk of the shorter approach shot and also ended up getting the reward as well. No, there is no problem removing the land to make the green visible from the fairway - it do not make the strategy of the hole change at all. But removing that landmass is costly - so why do it? My story is just to give an insight to what visibility can mean to a golfers experience - as a contrast to the "thrill of a blind shot". I see what you are saying, but just point out that there was an alternative to the blind shot. Was that hill placed their for strategic reasons? Probably no. But whoever designed that hole worked with what was given to them, thus making a random hill at the bottom of the fairway a consideration for shot selection. That is what a good designer would do, even for an alleged "crappy resort course" as someone stated.
|
|
|
Post by b101 on Jan 25, 2021 14:07:26 GMT -5
Going back to the core of the thread, rather than the reviewing side, which I hope I've clarified, I thought it'd be interesting to look at designers of famous blind shots and give some examples. Before I start, it's important to acknowledge counterarguments: two of the best architects of all time, Harry Colt and Alister Mackenzie, do not favour blind shots and tend to avoid them. BUT, both have used them when they see the benefits.
From Mackenzie's Ideal Principles: "There should be a minimum of blindness for the approach shots". Yet Mackenzie didn't adapt the Dell hole at Lahinch and the blind tee shot on the 4th at Royal Melbourne's West is the first piece of arguably the best par four in the world (it's certainly in the discussion).
Harry Colt: "Blind shots should be avoided wherever possible. This more especially applies to blind approach shots and to blind short holes." Yet, Colt is credited with much of the design of Royal County Down, which incorporates a number of blind tee shots and approaches and is always in the discussion for the best course in the world. He also laid out the 13th at Rye, which has one of the most astounding blind approaches in golf as you triangulate from a marker post to hit to a green behind a 50ft dune. It's an all-world hole.
Other designers who make use of blind shots, where appropriate:
Tom Doak: multiple, but 3rd at Old MacDonald springs to mind Coore/Crenshaw: again, multiple. See 4 and 6 at Bandon Trails, 10 and 18 at Friar's Head Raynor/MacDonald: literally every course
I could go on. There are loads and these are just off the top of my head. Blind shots add interest and excitement when used well. There is a massive difference between that and someone not sculpting a sightline (as evidenced in multiple previous posts)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 14:16:08 GMT -5
No, there is no problem removing the land to make the green visible from the fairway - it do not make the strategy of the hole change at all. But removing that landmass is costly - so why do it? My story is just to give an insight to what visibility can mean to a golfers experience - as a contrast to the "thrill of a blind shot". I see what you are saying, but just point out that there was an alternative to the blind shot. Was that hill placed their for strategic reasons? Probably no. But whoever designed that hole worked with what was given to them, thus making a random hill at the bottom of the fairway a consideration for shot selection. That is what a good designer would do, even for an alleged "crappy resort course" as someone stated. It was not a hill at all, just a downslope towards the green which makes the green not visible from the fairway (it is visible much futher towards the green). Yes - as I said, most time you see blindness in real life off the tee or in the fairway - it has nothing to do with strategy, but that you would need to remove landmass in order to avoid the blindness, which is costly. La Cala is a very decent golf resort. Yes, there are some not so good holes (18th on Europe comes to mind), but overall you get good golf on three courses. However, I would suggest buggy - as it is quite hilly, and some distance from green to tee on several parts on the courses. The hole in question is a completely good golf hole with good strategy.
|
|
|
Post by whodatmatt34 on Jan 25, 2021 14:32:21 GMT -5
Give me one good reason to have a hill 50 yards from tee that blocks visibility. One reason. A well-designed golf course tests every aspect of a golfer's game. The ability to hit a shot to a target he can't see is just another aspect to challenge. How well can you trust your distance and aim your shot with limited information? It's probably not a skill that most golfers want challenged repeatedly throughout a round, but once or twice adds good variety and can be a fair and fun test when done right.
|
|
|
Post by charliehustle on Jan 25, 2021 14:48:47 GMT -5
I see what you are saying, but just point out that there was an alternative to the blind shot. Was that hill placed their for strategic reasons? Probably no. But whoever designed that hole worked with what was given to them, thus making a random hill at the bottom of the fairway a consideration for shot selection. That is what a good designer would do, even for an alleged "crappy resort course" as someone stated. It was not a hill at all, just a downslope towards the green which makes the green not visible from the fairway (it is visible much futher towards the green). Yes - as I said, most time you see blindness in real life off the tee or in the fairway - it has nothing to do with strategy, but that you would need to remove landmass in order to avoid the blindness, which is costly. La Cala is a very decent golf resort. Yes, there are some not so good holes (18th on Europe comes to mind), but overall you get good golf on three courses. However, I would suggest buggy - as it is quite hilly, and some distance from green to tee on several parts on the courses. The hole in question is a completely good golf hole with good strategy. Ok this adds more clarity. Perhaps you should have been playing off of closer tees, or maybe have done some strength training. Whatever the case, it seems like your position was the problem and not the layout of the hole.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 14:59:32 GMT -5
It was not a hill at all, just a downslope towards the green which makes the green not visible from the fairway (it is visible much futher towards the green). Yes - as I said, most time you see blindness in real life off the tee or in the fairway - it has nothing to do with strategy, but that you would need to remove landmass in order to avoid the blindness, which is costly. La Cala is a very decent golf resort. Yes, there are some not so good holes (18th on Europe comes to mind), but overall you get good golf on three courses. However, I would suggest buggy - as it is quite hilly, and some distance from green to tee on several parts on the courses. The hole in question is a completely good golf hole with good strategy. Ok this adds more clarity. Perhaps you should have been playing off of closer tees, or maybe have done some strength training. Whatever the case, it seems like your position was the problem and not the layout of the hole. Not at all. I have quite okay distance and the ball was sitting just fine in the middle of the fairway after a perfect tee shot. The fairway narrows a bit futher from where I was - I had ca. 130 yards to the hole, so you add quite some risk hitting longer. You can possible go for the green with a driver, though it is quite risky. It would be no problem to have the downslope start earlier where the fairway narrows - which makes the hole visible from the natural landing area. You see the flag, so there is no problem aiming - so seeing the green do not make this shot easier. In the video game - I would most probably go for the green all the time - but I play a bit different in real life compared to the game.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 15:16:07 GMT -5
Give me one good reason to have a hill 50 yards from tee that blocks visibility. One reason. A well-designed golf course tests every aspect of a golfer's game. The ability to hit a shot to a target he can't see is just another aspect to challenge. How well can you trust your distance and aim your shot with limited information? It's probably not a skill that most golfers want challenged repeatedly throughout a round, but once or twice adds good variety and can be a fair and fun test when done right. Aiming blindly is pure luck, not skill in my opinion. If you have a target like an aiming pole, treeline etc - you have a clear target and so you know where to aim. So why the blindness if you provide aiming help to the golfer?
|
|
|
Post by trailducker on Jan 25, 2021 15:19:23 GMT -5
@andersnm
|
|
|
Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jan 25, 2021 15:33:50 GMT -5
TGC 2019 called and it wants it's thread back.
|
|
|
Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jan 25, 2021 15:39:19 GMT -5
Oh sh%$. This is actually a new thread. Lol. To the op. Blind shots are fine, just make sure there's a reason. If it's sloppily done it's probably not a good blind shot. The holes that do it well probably put more planning into that one blind shot than any other individual shot on the course.
|
|
|
Post by whodatmatt34 on Jan 25, 2021 15:50:13 GMT -5
A well-designed golf course tests every aspect of a golfer's game. The ability to hit a shot to a target he can't see is just another aspect to challenge. How well can you trust your distance and aim your shot with limited information? It's probably not a skill that most golfers want challenged repeatedly throughout a round, but once or twice adds good variety and can be a fair and fun test when done right. Aiming blindly is pure luck, not skill in my opinion. If you have a target like an aiming pole, treeline etc - you have a clear target and so you know where to aim. So why the blindness if you provide aiming help to the golfer? Do you also believe visual hazards are worthless? Such as bunkers that are well short of the green that make it appear to play shorter than it is, or layered bunkers off in the distance that make a green appear more surrounded than it is. There's something to be said for making the golfer uncomfortable and making them question their swing, and overcoming that is absolutely a skill.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 16:24:26 GMT -5
Aiming blindly is pure luck, not skill in my opinion. If you have a target like an aiming pole, treeline etc - you have a clear target and so you know where to aim. So why the blindness if you provide aiming help to the golfer? Do you also believe visual hazards are worthless? Such as bunkers that are well short of the green that make it appear to play shorter than it is, or layered bunkers off in the distance that make a green appear more surrounded than it is. There's something to be said for making the golfer uncomfortable and making them question their swing, and overcoming that is absolutely a skill. No. I can't claim to have knowledge on visual illusions - so if you say that a blind tee shot has it's purpose because of visual illusion - that I as a golfer is deceived visually - I have not experienced this Not that bunkers will make the hole appear shorter for me either. It may be true - but I (and I would say all I play with, which has been some over the years (no, no one has said they find blind tee shots thrilling either)) tend to look at the yardage and know distance to green - as I also will know where to aim on blind tee shots with different visual references (with a guide, or after a round). Without any visual references, a blind tee shot is just sticking your finger and trust to luck. Yes - hazards - and I would point out water especially - can make golfers uncomfortable, and ofcourse may influence their choices and aim. I could tell quite a few stories on how good golfers can become lost and just shoot ball after a ball into water - like a magnet. Garcia on the 15th on Augusta also comes to mind, or Spieth on the 12th if we look at the very best, but this happens to all golfers sooner or later However, shorter bunkers serve a purpose on different skill levels in golf. Take a look at the 8th on the Tour course at PGA Catalunya for example - this par 3 has three bunkers visible in front of the green - and a narrow fairway with two forward bunkers on either side. A golfer with a low trajectory have a narrow landing area to get that ball to roll up the fairway to the green - so you challenge the slow swing speed, mostly senior but also less skilled golfers (and do not forget women) with bunkers that will stop the ball on it's way up. My experience, is also that this skill level in golf, fear bunkers more than more skilled golfers - but this vary a bit as you can have pretty good golfers with slow swing speed that has low trajectory and long roll-outs. I have played with plenty of players that aim well away from bunkers, because they fear them. This is ofcourse not great for their scores - and I would highly suggest some practice and lessons on bunker-play. I would like to point out, that after hitting a bad tee shot - walking and trying to find visual reference to help your approach or next shot is indeed a skill - but the discussion was on blind tee shots, which do not have that aspect.
|
|
|
Post by robn on Jan 25, 2021 16:34:40 GMT -5
Sorry to go off topic here for a second, but I seem to have misplaced my reading glasses. If anyone finds them let me know.
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by joegolferg on Jan 25, 2021 17:26:49 GMT -5
A well-designed golf course tests every aspect of a golfer's game. The ability to hit a shot to a target he can't see is just another aspect to challenge. How well can you trust your distance and aim your shot with limited information? It's probably not a skill that most golfers want challenged repeatedly throughout a round, but once or twice adds good variety and can be a fair and fun test when done right. Aiming blindly is pure luck, not skill in my opinion. If you have a target like an aiming pole, treeline etc - you have a clear target and so you know where to aim. So why the blindness if you provide aiming help to the golfer? Although your target is blind you still know where you're aiming. If a blind shot has a marker it is still a blind shot, too.
|
|