Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 9:31:23 GMT -5
As a vertically challenged person the vast majority of shots I have made in my life have been blind shots even on parkland courses.
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 25, 2021 9:41:46 GMT -5
I can only echo Joe's last two posts. If you enjoy blind shots - like for example a tee shot right into a hill where you don't see anything past that hill 50 yards from the tee box - or a par 3 where you can't see the green or the flag. You and Joe are ofcourse entitled to that opinion - but I very much doubt that represent the majority of golfers. And - if you have that opinion - I find it very difficult to understand why you critique blindness in fantasy courses. I do have to point out that the hidden par 3 at Lahinch isn't just one of the most famous holes in Ireland, but also the rest of the world. It's universally loved by golfers from all over the globe. You cannot see a single part of the green from the tee, it's completely hidden behind huge dunes/hills. I'm 100% certain that a majority of golfers would approve this hole. A very big majority.
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Post by cd06 on Jan 25, 2021 9:42:58 GMT -5
Quick bit of inspiration if you do want to create a blind tee shot - play Lost Preserve's 11th hole for a blind shot done well. No real hidden hazards and enough room to aim for should be your first goals when creating one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 9:44:39 GMT -5
If you enjoy blind shots - like for example a tee shot right into a hill where you don't see anything past that hill 50 yards from the tee box - or a par 3 where you can't see the green or the flag. You and Joe are ofcourse entitled to that opinion - but I very much doubt that represent the majority of golfers. And - if you have that opinion - I find it very difficult to understand why you critique blindness in fantasy courses. It comes down to execution on fantasy courses and real courses. So - a 50 yard off the tee hill is good on one course, and not on another? What makes the difference?
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 25, 2021 9:46:57 GMT -5
It comes down to execution on fantasy courses and real courses. So - a 50 yard off the tee hill is good on one course, and not on another? What makes the difference? What examples are you using for this comparison?
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jswift
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Post by jswift on Jan 25, 2021 9:51:49 GMT -5
It comes down to execution on fantasy courses and real courses. So - a 50 yard off the tee hill is good on one course, and not on another? What makes the difference? A hill in and of itself is probably not the problem. A hill with no references, that seems out of place, and in the way due to laziness is a problem. Give me a reference point and some help in the landing area and it could be great. Perhaps a peak of the fairway on the low side, or even just a simple aiming stick. Also if the shot feels crowded and claustrophobic it will probably be terrible. If all I can see is the hill when on the tee im not going to enjoy that.
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Post by tpetro on Jan 25, 2021 9:53:42 GMT -5
I did, but your opening line is dead wrong. Hence why I quoted that part. There's parts of what you say that I agree with, but you cannot post sweeping statements like that one as if it's fact. So your opinion as a golfer is that you like blind shots? That aiming blindly over a hill is good? Let me ask a question to clarify my statement: if blindness can be used strategic - is not a blind shot a shot that a golfer want to avoid and thus find bad? I think again you misunderstand the statement. The statement is not that a blind shot necessary is bad design, but bad for the golfer - thus making the shot more difficult. No anders, let me explain approach shot blindness. It's not that golfers don't enjoy blind shots but that golfers feel more confident hitting approaches when they can see the flagstick. Great examples like the 5th at Mammoth Dunes, 16th at NGLA, and the 16th at Lundin Links all punish the golfer who is in the wrong portion of the fairway by offering him a blind shot. Is the shot still thrilling? Of course. But it's naturally harder to hit your target when you don't know what you're aiming at. Note the dune that creates a blind approach from the safest part of the fairway - punishment for taking the easy way out. This is different off the tee. The well-executed blind tee balls IRL are well-framed enough to offer the golfer an idea of where he should be hitting it. The strategy here is created by visual intimidation and diagonals that subtly influence the player to play towards a certain side. Looks daunting right? Well, the fairway is actually over 60 yards wide. Look, we're all entitled to opinions, but to make sweeping statements that blindness is universally bad and that you can't fathom how anyone can enjoy it discredits your opinion. Joe is right, you've probably not gotten the chance to play a links course - which is not a bad thing at all, most haven't - but you can't act like you are educated on the subject when you make objectively incorrect generalizations like such. Graeme, do not listen to anders. His opinion does not reflect the general public. As long as you make the blind shots interesting, different, and strategic, there's no issue at all.
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 25, 2021 9:58:53 GMT -5
Petro, you sassy mother Fker.
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Post by lessthanbread on Jan 25, 2021 10:02:54 GMT -5
Petro gives a fantastic example of how to properly frame a blind shot. It's certainly scary, no doubt, but if you really look at it, you know where the fairway is and where to aim. The surrounding landscape is a very important part to making a good blind shot
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 10:07:12 GMT -5
If you enjoy blind shots - like for example a tee shot right into a hill where you don't see anything past that hill 50 yards from the tee box - or a par 3 where you can't see the green or the flag. You and Joe are ofcourse entitled to that opinion - but I very much doubt that represent the majority of golfers. And - if you have that opinion - I find it very difficult to understand why you critique blindness in fantasy courses. I do have to point out that the hidden par 3 at Lahinch isn't just one of the most famous holes in Ireland, but also the rest of the world. It's universally loved by golfers from all over the globe. You cannot see a single part of the green from the tee, it's completely hidden behind huge dunes/hills. I'm 100% certain that a majority of golfers would approve this hole. A very big majority. So they use a white rock to let the golfer know where the hole is. Lots of british links courses has aim markers to let the golfer know where to aim off the tee. I have seen 20 feet high flagsticks to help the golfer see where to aim. The question is what is the reason for the blindness? And in most cases, it is not strategy, but bad design/routing, and the need to dig and move lots of land. Bells to let the golfers waiting on tee know it is clear to play (which is not always possible to hear due to wind). There are so many bad examples on different courses - not only british links (you know, we could also go into a long debate on what links is). Personally, I like the strategy behind the 5th at Lahinch - you need to be precise in distance control, but I would much prefer to have that as a downhill hole so you can see the flag, and perhaps also parts of the green. I find no reason to have that shot completely blind. And without the rock and knowledge on where the hole is - you are just leaving the golfers with luck on where to aim. (We have a very similar hole on one of my local courses - though that hole is much longer (200 yards)).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 10:26:43 GMT -5
So your opinion as a golfer is that you like blind shots? That aiming blindly over a hill is good? Let me ask a question to clarify my statement: if blindness can be used strategic - is not a blind shot a shot that a golfer want to avoid and thus find bad? I think again you misunderstand the statement. The statement is not that a blind shot necessary is bad design, but bad for the golfer - thus making the shot more difficult. It's not that golfers don't enjoy blind shots but that golfers feel more confident hitting approaches when they can see the flagstick. Is the shot still thrilling? Of course. But it's naturally harder to hit your target when you don't know what you're aiming at.
Look, we're all entitled to opinions, but to make sweeping statements that blindness is universally bad and that you can't fathom how anyone can enjoy it discredits your opinion. What golfers may find thrilling or not is not the case - and I see I may have phrased myself in a wrong way. The first bold part - is what I intended to have a statement on - a blind shot is much harder, and I would like to add luck-depended, compared to a visible shot. So "bad" for the golfer who is left with a more difficult shot. No, I do not claim blind shots from parts on a wide fairway as unfair or bad - but can be part of the strategy on that hole. Blind shots from all over the fairway however is not good. So no, to the second bolded quote - I have never claimed this, and it is clearly written in the first post I wrote in this thread that blindness can be used strategic. If you as a golfer has the option to have blindness or not, I bet heavy that you prefer to see as it makes the shot easier. Thus - the strategic value of blindness.
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graemevood
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Post by graemevood on Jan 25, 2021 10:33:36 GMT -5
A lot of Irish links courses are covered in high dunes, like people have said.. lahinch the perfect example. Pretty sure there is a par 480 yards long because the fairway is split by a huge dune leaving it blind to the green. The post has kind of proved my point being that so many people have a gripe about blind shots.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 11:19:00 GMT -5
So - a 50 yard off the tee hill is good on one course, and not on another? What makes the difference? A hill in and of itself is probably not the problem. A hill with no references, that seems out of place, and in the way due to laziness is a problem. Give me a reference point and some help in the landing area and it could be great. Perhaps a peak of the fairway on the low side, or even just a simple aiming stick. Also if the shot feels crowded and claustrophobic it will probably be terrible. If all I can see is the hill when on the tee im not going to enjoy that. References - trees, buildings etc - that help you aim, or simply an aim marker. All these makes the shot easier and less luck. But - what are the purpose of the hill and blindness? Why have it there? "It could be great" - for what? To stop the low-hitting senior to roll his ball onto the fairway? You can use bunkers for that purpose. Usualy when I find this on courses - it is because it would mean a ton of land need to be removed - which costs money, and so they leave the land there. It is of no purpose, and the aiming marker is there to help the golfers - the bells in the fairway to let the golfers on the tee know when it is clear, if they hear it - or if the group actually use the bell. I have waited on tee for like 10+ minutes.. and decided just to hit the shot - coming down the fairway to find angry golfers who got the ball landing on their feet. It is dangerous and it is bad routing of the course. Give me one good reason to have a hill 50 yards from tee that blocks visibility. One reason.
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Post by b101 on Jan 25, 2021 11:38:12 GMT -5
A hill in and of itself is probably not the problem. A hill with no references, that seems out of place, and in the way due to laziness is a problem. Give me a reference point and some help in the landing area and it could be great. Perhaps a peak of the fairway on the low side, or even just a simple aiming stick. Also if the shot feels crowded and claustrophobic it will probably be terrible. If all I can see is the hill when on the tee im not going to enjoy that. References - trees, buildings etc - that help you aim, or simply an aim marker. All these makes the shot easier and less luck. But - what are the purpose of the hill and blindness? Why have it there? "It could be great" - for what? To stop the low-hitting senior to roll his ball onto the fairway? You can use bunkers for that purpose. Usualy when I find this on courses - it is because it would mean a ton of land need to be removed - which costs money, and so they leave the land there. It is of no purpose, and the aiming marker is there to help the golfers - the bells in the fairway to let the golfers on the tee know when it is clear, if they hear it - or if the group actually use the bell. I have waited on tee for like 10+ minutes.. and decided just to hit the shot - coming down the fairway to find angry golfers who got the ball landing on their feet. It is dangerous and it is bad routing of the course. Give me one good reason to have a hill 50 yards from tee that blocks visibility. One reason. Because when the course was designed they chose to put the tee behind it as it’s an exhilarating, heroic shot to play. It’s not bad routing if done well. My home course has a blind tee shot exactly as you describe and it lifts an otherwise straightforward dogleg right. They can be great features when utilised well. I have never had an issue with hitting into other golfers or being hit at and haven’t heard of any either. You can tell where the group in front are based on the previous hole and people ring the bell. The hole in question:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2021 11:51:55 GMT -5
References - trees, buildings etc - that help you aim, or simply an aim marker. All these makes the shot easier and less luck. But - what are the purpose of the hill and blindness? Why have it there? "It could be great" - for what? To stop the low-hitting senior to roll his ball onto the fairway? You can use bunkers for that purpose. Usualy when I find this on courses - it is because it would mean a ton of land need to be removed - which costs money, and so they leave the land there. It is of no purpose, and the aiming marker is there to help the golfers - the bells in the fairway to let the golfers on the tee know when it is clear, if they hear it - or if the group actually use the bell. I have waited on tee for like 10+ minutes.. and decided just to hit the shot - coming down the fairway to find angry golfers who got the ball landing on their feet. It is dangerous and it is bad routing of the course. Give me one good reason to have a hill 50 yards from tee that blocks visibility. One reason. Because when the course was designed they chose to put the tee behind it as it’s an exhilarating, heroic shot to play. It’s not bad routing if done well. My home course has a blind tee shot exactly as you describe and it lifts an otherwise straightforward dogleg right. They can be great features when utilised well. I have never had an issue with hitting into other golfers or being hit at and haven’t heard of any either. You can tell where the group in front are based on the previous hole and people ring the bell. There are plenty of semi-blind shots, where the landing area with a long driver is blind, but where you can see the front group move forward later on the hole. Blind shots and bells are indeed dangerous, though we fortunately have rare problems with it - it do happen. If an exhilirating and thrilling experience is the reason for blind shots - everyone can claim that is the reason for their blindness on their fantasy courses. How can you tell? It is of no strategic value, is it? I would claim thrilling experience is well acheived with visibility, and that you certainly don't need blindness for that. For me personal, I get more thrilled when I can see, compared to when I cannot.
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