Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 13:39:34 GMT -5
Hello TGCtours members, I think relying too heavily on the very firm and fast for difficulty in the short term should be avoided and adopt a more patient wait and see attitude. Of course I will likely never get to the Pro Tour Level, because I do not put in the work and spend too much time in the designer, which is fine with me, so really it's up to you at the top in the end. I like the increased distance and more difficult routing to increase difficulty and the course should play relatively difficult under most fairway and green conditions. Yes, conditions do increase difficulty but a true tournament or tour in my opinion should have multiple pin set ups and with those different set ups varying green and fairway conditions as well as changes in lighting. I also think removing play aids should come before tricked up playing conditions. If you remove wind and landing camera aids then you will be increasing the difficulty without having to rely on conditions which I believe SHOULD vary on a golf course. All of the, "I need to know exact distances and such under the extreme playing conditions of very firm fairways and fast greens" are a result of the Pro Tour subjecting themselves to unnatural and frankly not very fun golf, at least it would not be for me. I'm sure that some of the Pro Tour players are fine with it and some probably enjoy playing courses that way. It's becoming like a self-fulfilling prophesy where you trick up conditions to make things more difficulty which does not allow for removing aids to increase difficulty and then some designers start creating courses designed for specific conditions. There are probably regional issues that true life designers consider when designing a real world course, such as considering prevalent wind patterns on a links course or a course designed to hold up to the desert climate and such. But I imagine even then the designers are not designing a course for specific conditions of firmness and green speeds. That is because of real world weather conditions which change, plus the ability of course managers to soften things up with water. I think we would all be better off if we teach ourselves how to design tough courses that would be almost unbearable under extreme conditions, such as very firm and very fast or even very high winds, than build courses to suit firm and fast or even very high winds. Thanks for listening, -Mike  |
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Post by SmilingGoats on Mar 23, 2015 13:47:54 GMT -5
No offense Mike, but this post is sort of ridiculous. There is no policy in place that all courses from here on out are going to be firm and fast. This week is the first week in many weeks that we've played a course with that setup. While it is true that we're trying to select more difficult set ups for the pro tours until such time as HB makes the changes we desire to explore removing aids, there is nothing which specifically mandates that firm and fast is required. I'm not sure where you're getting that.
EDIT: THIS RESPONSE WAS TO MIKE'S ORIGINAL POST BEFORE HE EDITED IT.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 14:34:13 GMT -5
No offense Mike, but this post is sort of ridiculous. There is no policy in place that all courses from here on out are going to be firm and fast. This week is the first week in many weeks that we've played a course with that setup. While it is true that we're trying to select more difficult set ups for the pro tours until such time as HB makes the changes we desire to explore removing aids, there is nothing which specifically mandates that firm and fast is required. I'm not sure where you're getting that. SmilingGoats, I'm sorry if I have ruffled feathers. I picked it up from doing reading on the forums and observing trends. I did not say there was a policy in place, it's just a trend that I am observing and concerned about. If I am wrong then I am wrong and will actually be happy to be wrong. I picked up on one of Doyley's post which gave me the impression that course condition difficulty which I call Firm and Fast is the preferred method of increasing difficulty and that removing the approach camera aid was not preferable. If I read it wrong then I read it wrong.
I realize that TGCtours is trying to adjust the difficulty of the Pro Tours which means the farm tours are going to be ratcheted up as well. As a member of the community I am giving my opinion and trying to shape the direction of the discussion and ultimately the result. If I cannot accomplish that then there are other tours out there that might suit me better. TGCtours does a great job all around so I am enjoying myself still. But if your looking for sheep to follow the establishment then your not going to like my posts very much even though I try to be objective and professional about it.
Breaking the Bubble,
-Mike  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 14:53:32 GMT -5
The selection I prefer is not listed. Firm and fast, but not long.
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Post by SmilingGoats on Mar 23, 2015 16:06:58 GMT -5
Mike,
People are discussing the conditions of the current tournament. And the US Open is likely going to be firmer and faster. But that's two tournaments out of how many?
My point is, you're declaring we are going in the wrong direction, when we haven't established a direction at all apart from two tournaments. You're making something out of nothing, in my opinion.
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GoldEaglex12
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 78 
TGCT Name: Kyle Robertson
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Post by GoldEaglex12 on Mar 23, 2015 16:21:01 GMT -5
What is everyone's opinion on more of a medium firmness, but fast greens? Combine that with courses that are on the longer side, but not absurdly long. Could that be more of a happy medium for future tournaments? That way you might not get have as many issues with holding greens, yet still may be left with more challenging putts.
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Post by Doyley on Mar 23, 2015 16:27:46 GMT -5
What is everyone's opinion on more of a medium firmness, but fast greens? Combine that with courses that are on the longer side, but not absurdly long. Could that be more of a happy medium for future tournaments? That way you might not get have as many issues with holding greens, yet still may be left with more challenging putts. You'll see that when we play Fire Rock Ranch and Magnolia. It can be just as difficult - should be fun! |
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GoldEaglex12
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 78
TGCT Name: Kyle Robertson
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Post by GoldEaglex12 on Mar 23, 2015 16:36:04 GMT -5
What is everyone's opinion on more of a medium firmness, but fast greens? Combine that with courses that are on the longer side, but not absurdly long. Could that be more of a happy medium for future tournaments? That way you might not get have as many issues with holding greens, yet still may be left with more challenging putts. You'll see that when we play Fire Rock Ranch and Magnolia. It can be just as difficult - should be fun! I'll be interested to see how that works out. Not sure whether or not I'm in the minority on this issue, but I'm actually enjoying the challenge of the fast/firm Bison Run this week. It's not like other weeks where you can be on auto-pilot and shoot low 60's or into the 50's easily. I know we'll probably never see truly realistic tourney scores because this is a video game, however the -70 shootouts are a bit excessive in my opinion. Much of my love for golf, both video game and in real life, comes from the thought process of figuring out how to execute a tough shot and the challenge that comes along with actually pulling it off. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 16:37:19 GMT -5
Mike, People are discussing the conditions of the current tournament. And the US Open is likely going to be firmer and faster. But that's two tournaments out of how many? My point is, you're declaring we are going in the wrong direction, when we haven't established a direction at all apart from two tournaments. You're making something out of nothing, in my opinion. Well, Is this the sentence that has got you going. "Just my 2 cents...so the Pro Tours and tgctours.com is moving away from what I would consider the best direction." I think it is pretty well stated that this is my perceived opinion not a pure statement of fact and like I said If I am wrong then I am wrong. Would you like me to edit that line out of my post? I can if you like. Or if it really bothers you just remove the offending post completely. I think it is not a ridiculous but a good post that asks questions about our direction as a commmunity, even if the premise is misguided or not. No offense. Sincerely, -Mike  |
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Post by SmilingGoats on Mar 23, 2015 17:36:35 GMT -5
Mike,
I'm not upset. What I'm saying is that the whole premise of your poll/post is based on something that isn't accurate. There are, at present, limited but various ways to make a course/tournament play more difficult and we are exploring all of them. Your entire post was based on "your opinion" that we're only exploring firm and fast, which is clearly an assumption on your part and my point is that it simply isn't true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 17:52:08 GMT -5
Mike, I'm not upset. What I'm saying is that the whole premise of your poll/post is based on something that isn't accurate. There are, at present, limited but various ways to make a course/tournament play more difficult and we are exploring all of them. Your entire post was based on "your opinion" that we're only exploring firm and fast, which is clearly an assumption on your part and my point is that it simply isn't true. SmilingGoats, I'm glad it's not true. Just felt like the signs were all there as to which way this was headed. At any rate I thought it would be interesting to have a poll for the community to weigh in if that was an unintended trend developing, which it's not. As you have just clearly stated. I guess I took some offense from the post being called "sort of ridiculous". The premise may have been wrong and that is my fault, but "ridiculous". If you had issues with my logic then state it more diplomatically. It's what I expect from an "Administrator". And couching statements with "No Offense" doesn't give someone the excuse to be "sort of rude". I'm hoping your getting the gist of what I am trying to say here. You did offend me. Sorry I don't see it your way, -Mike  |
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Post by peteranf on Mar 23, 2015 18:25:52 GMT -5
I think tgc tours is doing an excellent job...sometimes greens are a little fast but if you had more control of spin like tiger games i fear it might be too easy..just shot 77, 73 , 76 , 67 on senior tour..thought the course was better than the review..some tough breaking putts ..i think i could go lower if i super analyzed every shot...maybe a shot clock like stenson was upset about at bay hill would be justified ..i have some fighting games, racing games like grid but the golf club is my favorite maybe get the course designer to play 4k..game is best played on pc at ultra settings..golf looks beautiful on my i7 2700k with 650ti boost and 8gb..thanks for taking the time to make an awesome game..peteranf..topeka ,ks
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 18:39:28 GMT -5
*sigh* Can we go ONE week where we don't have some type of complaint being made about course selection? My policy is, "If you don't like the course during your practice round, don't play that week."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 19:27:49 GMT -5
*sigh* Can we go ONE week where we don't have some type of complaint being made about course selection? My policy is, "If you don't like the course during your practice round, don't play that week." With a thousand people, you could hand out candy canes.
One of the big lessons I have learned from my journey is you cant please everyone, so dont try.
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Post by dlw1964 on Mar 23, 2015 19:34:00 GMT -5
The next 2 PGA events will be very nice.
Both Fire Rock & Magnolia are excellent course.
Hit good approaches & putt well you can shot double digit under but if either you approach or putting is a little off you will only be in the single digit under.
Medium firmness with fast greens is my preferred set-up.
Even though I'm not a fan of firm & fast an occasional tournament is fine.
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