gr2951
Caddy
Posts: 24
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by gr2951 on Aug 29, 2020 23:50:13 GMT -5
Hello all. I have been playing and creating since 2014, but this is my first post. Long time lurker! I have a question for reviewers/anyone who has feedback. Currently working on this short hole, very early into its design. It's 210 from the back tees, and 150 from the front. Normally, that's a par 3, but it is 45ft uphill and has a unique shape and landing area. Hole #2 on the course. Would it be okay to make it a short par 4? If this is the wrong board, let me know or feel free to move my post. Interested to hear everyone's thoughts! Image link: imgur.com/IjNodB8
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Post by rjwils30 on Aug 30, 2020 0:51:33 GMT -5
Interesting question. I would think if hitting the green in one shot is tough but doable it should be a par 3. If The green is so shallow you can’t hold it with one shot then perhaps it should be a par 4. I think the key with that type of hole is how to make it interesting strategically. If it’s just a forced layup or you just fire at the green every time then it’s kind of boring. How do you deter guys from just firing at the green every time? There must be a severe penalty or some sort of sucker green complex which leaves super difficult chips from all around. Perhaps you should provide fairway over the green so for some pins you actually have to play over for the best second shot in. Or provide lots of fairway around the green and it’s all about providing an array of positions to leave your ball depending on pin position. Most people will think this a crazy hole but I think it’s worth trying out. What’s preventing you from making it longer by the way? If you stretch it to 275-300. There will be no question. Still reachable.
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 30, 2020 1:23:23 GMT -5
Hello all. I have been playing and creating since 2014, but this is my first post. Long time lurker! I have a question for reviewers/anyone who has feedback. Currently working on this short hole, very early into its design. It's 210 from the back tees, and 150 from the front. Normally, that's a par 3, but it is 45ft uphill and has a unique shape and landing area. Hole #2 on the course. Would it be okay to make it a short par 4? If this is the wrong board, let me know or feel free to move my post. Interested to hear everyone's thoughts! Image link: imgur.com/IjNodB8Looking at this image, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be a par 3 at 210 yards. Every single player is going to fire at this green and there is nothing in sight that would make the player think that would be a bad idea. Even if the green is tough, a two-putt is a reasonable expectation. If you're set on making it a par 4, I'm with Rob on this one - you need to lengthen this hole, make reaching the green treacherous, and offer a safe layup area short of the green - or go wild and make the desired approach from behind the green.
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Post by Violinguy69 on Aug 30, 2020 8:23:54 GMT -5
To me, a short par 4 is one where the risk of pulling off the miracle shot and hitting the ball on the green is worse than 50-50. If you're going to go under 250 yards, you'll need to be quite creative.
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Post by rjwils30 on Aug 30, 2020 9:52:24 GMT -5
I didn’t see the image originally and now that I do it is definitely a par 3. As Erixon suggested above you need to make it more penal around the green and provide a layup area to deter people from playing like a par 3 every time.
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Post by mctrees02 on Aug 31, 2020 14:29:40 GMT -5
I had a hole like this on my last course, Maverick Dunes. The second hole is a par 3 that plays 35-45' uphill at anywhere from 210 to 245. What I did was build a large undulating green that allowed you to funnel the ball towards most of the pin locations (except the back right where you had to run it up though there was a softer landing area short of it to keep the putt distance manageable. So even if the hole was into a very high wind, one could still hit a driver into it and the slopes would keep you in a good place.
If you wanted to make it a short par 4, then going for the green needs to be such a high risk shot that most players will choose to lay up. That being said, in 2k21 where the ball rolls out much better than TGC19, I wouldn't be building a short four at less than 255-265 yards where somebody could consider running a 3w up. At 210 yards, asking the player to either go for broke or hit PW/PW probably isn't too interesting of a hole. Having it as the second hole on the course could also set a bad tone in the player's mind that the course will be quite gimmicky.
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gr2951
Caddy
Posts: 24
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by gr2951 on Sept 5, 2020 15:31:24 GMT -5
Hello everyone, thank you for the responses! Sorry about getting back to everyone so late. Here are two more images of the hole. After reading everyone's feedback I think I will make it a par three and make the hole a little flatter overall to shorten it up slightly. My original train of thought was to give an easy, long landing area on the left where you could play a wedge back to the green over a small hump with a bunker (40-70 yds). Effectively playing as a short, 90 degree dogleg with an option to try and stick it on the tiny punch-bowlish green. The slopes are a little steep right now, but you would require almost a perfect shot to stick the green, as the front heavily rejects attempts to roll up onto the green. The green itself is tiny and roughly flat, other than around the edges. rjwils30 ErixonStoneAs far as to why I thought it should be a par 4 at 210 as opposed to a par 3, that is more for 'lore' reasons than anything else. Thinking about this course in a "real world" context, this hole would be incredibly punitive for a real, average golfer to hit a GIR as a par 3. They however have a fairly safe lateral area to spray to, making it reasonable to expect a GIR as a par 4. From a tour setting, this is the second hole on the course and I was going to set it up as a stadium hole with seating built around it. The idea being is that it is an easy scoring opportunity (potentially eagle, probably birdie, bogies only for the worst mistakes) to inject some excitement into the early round where it is lacking. And playing by 2K21 standards (pro and up), the green is still relatively difficult. I suppose my mistake was thinking about par as an indicator of overall difficulty, and not as an indicator of distance. Sub 250yd par 4s don't really exist in real life on tour, and I suppose for good reason.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Sept 5, 2020 17:54:38 GMT -5
I think I'd reverse the pattern of your tee boxes. Right now the forward tees have a worse angle than your championship tees. Maybe have the back tee play directly towards that back bunker.
Edit: I think I'd make that back bunker bigger too. Make it real intimidating of the tee.
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Post by mctrees02 on Sept 6, 2020 16:54:20 GMT -5
Remember that the average golfer (aka a bogey golfer) in real life shouldn’t be playing from the tips so they would be playing this from 160-180 yards and not 210+. A great hole for you to study would be the 8th at Mammoth Dunes. It plays between 90 and 200 yards. DMK’s design is a perfect example of increasing the amount of forced carry with every set of tees you move back on. The green is also angled to allow the front tees to use mounds short and left to run a ball up to the green (IRL you can even putt it from the front tees) while the back tees have to carry the waste area and have a much smaller landing area because the angle of green works and its surrounding slopes work against you running your ball onto and holding the green. It's essentially an island green from the back with the ocean being sand.
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Post by ErixonStone on Sept 7, 2020 0:11:03 GMT -5
I suppose my mistake was thinking about par as an indicator of overall difficulty, and not as an indicator of distance. Sub 250yd par 4s don't really exist in real life on tour, and I suppose for good reason. Par isn't determined by distance, nor is it determined by difficulty. Par is an indication of how the hole can be expected to be played. Will players aim for the green in one shot, two shots, or three shots? Your hole would be played as a one-shot hole by any player playing from the appropriate tee. Your green is set up perfectly to accept shots from the back tee, in terms of both pitch and orientation. There is no extra risk in taking aim at the green. Laying up, or playing to the left doesn't leave you in an advantageous position. Here's my interpretation of your hole with some changes that I have made. This hole stretches out to 245 yards and plays 30 feet uphill. From the tees, the hole is clearly laid out, but you don't get to see everything. There are some hidden nuances, but let's take a look at what you can see from the tee. First, players can see a clear, safe area. It plays as a direct line from the front tee, and the back tee is angled a little bit so that the ideal shot to the safe area is a slight fade. Second, the fairway is pinched a bit by a bunker, and behind that bunker is a second landing area. This one is a little more difficult to reach and players can choose to take on more of the ravine to get closer to the green. This area is flatter and an ideal place to be. Lastly, from the tee, you can see the bunkers in front of the green. You can't actually see the green, though. More on that later. In this view, you can see the relation of the green to each of the lines of play, and how being farther up the hill lessens the difficulty of the approach. The safe line still has to contend with the front bunkers, and the ideal shot into the green would be a cut from left to right. That is tough to do from the sidehill lie. From the ideal line, players have a clear approach - an unobstructed pitch shot to a green tilted toward the player. If players want to take aim at the green from the tee, they can, but they must carry the bunkers. This last picture shows the green complex. The green itself has two tiers and the entire green is pitched from right to left. From the tee, the green is very shallow and pitched front-right-to-back-left. Behind the green is a steep run-off and collection area which leaves an awkward chip up the hill. There's no guarantee of getting it close from behind the green. From the ideal line, players have plenty of room and a good angle to get their unobstructed pitch shot from a flat lie close to the pin. From the safe area, players need to carry the front bunker and stop the ball using backspin. This makes for a difficult second shot. A hole like this offers three separate options from the tee without dictating to the player how to play the hole while providing an excellent chance at birdie. The hole might even cough up a few eagles under ideal conditions (most likely a headwind that will help stop approaches). Players will feel pressure to make a birdie on this hole and get their round off to a good start.
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gr2951
Caddy
Posts: 24
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by gr2951 on Sept 9, 2020 18:41:09 GMT -5
I did realize that my tees were mixed around. I switched those up and made the hole play roughly 255 from the back tees while still maintaining it's uphill nature. ErixonStone I really, really appreciate the feedback and effort. There was absolutely no need to create a whole hole with labeled screenshots! I truly appreciate it and I think I took a lot from it. I'm understanding what you mean about par now. In its previous configuration, people would basically be going for the green 9/10 if not 10/10 shots. And even if they miss, it's still a par 3. So it played like a par 3 with an optional layup area that really conferred no advantage compared to just going for the green and chipping it on when you miss. Now, on to the redesigned par 4: Now, the hole plays correctly, with the tour tee boxes offering a tougher shot because of the mound in front of the green with the integrated bunker. The front tees have an easier, straighter shot that shortens up the hole just as much as before. A skilled player should be able to reach the green in one shot, if they play a slight draw. Shots that go too long will be swallowed by the bunker behind the green. The mound in front of the green also plays into the green a little bit. The area to the front left acts as a wider landing area, but it is shorter and leaves you with an awkward pitch to be on the green. The landing area to the right is narrower but deeper and will leave you with an easier pitch if you miss the green and roll down onto the fairway. I will be putting up a post with the entire front 9 on work in progress courses hopefully by the end of this week. I really appreciate all of the feedback I've gotten, it's really helped with some of the design roadblocks I've been running into. I don't have a ton of time to dedicate to this, so I'm hoping I can put out 3 or 4 really solid courses in this game's lifecycle.
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Post by b101 on Sept 12, 2020 0:53:58 GMT -5
For all that people might say par isn’t determined by distance, it kinda is... there are good guidelines and whilst you can blur between half pars a little (short four/long three and short five/long four), the par you choose should be obvious.
Lowest I’d go for a short four is 270 yards and even then you have to be careful that you don’t get into silly territory with people firing over the green. Longest I would go for a par three is 290. Both of those extremes have to be handled with real skill and care. It’s not easy to make them work.
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