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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jun 28, 2020 16:16:57 GMT -5
But wait, wait..i'll take some pic and i'll share it. Is the best (if not the only) way to make you understand of what i'm talking about, instead to force you to check some map (definitely not useful, anyway, to have an idea of what the situation is under the trees ) I'll post some pic as soon is possible. Meanwhile, as always, thank you guys. You're always really helpful and very patient with the dozens of questions i usually have I apprecuated it always a lot. Really.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jun 28, 2020 17:07:42 GMT -5
Well..this is the image from above. The yellow line indicates more or less when i found the first and the last of those red stakes (i saw 5 of these stakes..and they are not at the same distance. The first is enough distant from the second..and the third is pretty distant from the fourth). This is an image from the tee of hole 9, it shows a good panorama of the pond, the end of hole 1 and the distance between the pond and the hole 1 This is a view from the fairway of hole 1 This is a view from the fairway of hole 9, just to show the ground near the pond And these are the pics in which you can see the red stakes. The pic of the first stake is missing, but i believe they can show the situation. The first (the second, in fact) is taken where the fairway makes the curve, more or less at the half of the fairway. The last is just shortly after the green bunker. I can't swear about what there is behind those stakes, checking the video i can't see any water, but if there is no water, following what all you said, it wouldn' be better to indicate that zone with some stake of a different color or just as OB?
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Jun 28, 2020 18:07:10 GMT -5
Well..this is the image from above. The yellow line indicates more or less when i found the first and the last of those red stakes (i saw 5 of these stakes..and they are not at the same distance. The first is enough distant from the second..and the third is pretty distant from the fourth). This is an image from the tee of hole 9, it shows a good panorama of the pond, the end of hole 1 and the distance between the pond and the hole 1 This is a view from the fairway of hole 1 This is a view from the fairway of hole 9, just to show the ground near the pond And these are the pics in which you can see the red stakes. The pic of the first stake is missing, but i believe they can show the situation. The first (the second, in fact) is taken where the fairway makes the curve, more or less at the half of the fairway. The last is just shortly after the green bunker. I can't swear about what there is behind those stakes, checking the video i can't see any water, but if there is no water, following what all you said, it wouldn' be better to indicate that zone with some stake of a different color or just as OB? What you’re dealing with here is probably the course using a lateral hazard to mark a densely vegetated area that is more or less unplayable in most circumstances. Many courses with these types of vegetated areas will declare them lateral hazards for many reasons. The first and usually most important reason is player safety. These types of areas are usually comprised of uneven, un-maintained ground that could potentially pose a real risk to players when both searching and/or attempting to play from this kind of area. Liability is a real concern. Another reason courses will do this is in an attempt to speed up play as it is much quicker to follow the protocol for a lateral hazard then it is to hit your shot, walk/ride all the way to it, spend 5 minutes searching for it, declare it lost, return to the previous spot, and hit again. In TGC, pace of play is not a concern and there are no lost balls. IRL, lost balls can seriously bog down play which is bad for courses that experience heavy play. To answer your question about OB vs. lateral hazard, many courses tend to shy away from OB and lean toward lateral hazards simply due to the extremely Penal nature of OB. OB is essentially a two stroke penalty ( stroke and distance) where as lateral hazards are only one stroke. Again, this is largely done to keep up pace of play and usually has little if anything to do with hole strategy. Hope this helps with your dilemma!
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jun 28, 2020 19:00:57 GMT -5
hallzballz6908 Of course it does! I also think your answer would be the simplest, full of commom sense and more probable explanation to my problem (and i can also say it semplify A LOT my work ) It was also my idea from the start, but my doubt was that, if actually a red stake indicate ALWAYS an imminent lateral water hazard (as i read when i searched it), there should be some water there. But not only i can't see any water there, but it wouldn't make actually so much sense..the "trajectory" of the creek should be absolutely senseless! Thank you to all you guys, now i can continue my work with no concerns or doubts (for now ) Have a good week!!
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Post by sandsaver01 on Jun 29, 2020 6:51:43 GMT -5
Ezzino, I know at many clubs I have played in the U.S. they mark hazard areas that are not water with red stakes. Some clubs have thick tall fescue in play that is marked. The main reason this is done is to speed up play so players do not spend excess time looking for their ball - just take the stroke and drop a ball. Perhaps this is the case as well with Nine Bridges?
Edit - sorry I repeated the answer above, I hadn't read it before posting.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jun 29, 2020 9:43:23 GMT -5
Ezzino, I know at many clubs I have played in the U.S. they mark hazard areas that are not water with red stakes. Some clubs have thick tall fescue in play that is marked. The main reason this is done is to speed up play so players do not spend excess time looking for their ball - just take the stroke and drop a ball. Perhaps this is the case as well with Nine Bridges? Edit - sorry I repeated the answer above, I hadn't read it before posting.Don't worry at all, mate After all, two opinions are always better than one. And, as already said, this is also an opinion full of common sense. What i found reading the general rule about the red stake confused me a bit and created this doubt and i'm really thankful to have such a clear answer. As always, i really appreciated the help and support from all you guys Now i think i'll take a little break from designing, to play a practice round at your Bandon Dunes
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 5:47:52 GMT -5
Thank you for the detailed answer. Sorry if i bother you, but i wish to "use" your experience to find an answer to the "real" question is torturing me, about this thing of the red stakes. I'm working on a recreation of The Club at Nine Bridges, in South Korea. If you open a satellite maps of this course, you can notice that on hole 9 (is the one immediately below the hole 1, that is placed below the driving range, on the left of the clubhouse zone), between the tees complex and the fairway there is a pond. Near to the start of the left side of the fairway, you could see also the little creek that dies in that pond. Checking different maps taken in different years in Google Heart Pro, i saw that this creek seems to goes following the fairway of hole 9, although is difficult to understand the exact line it follows. I found a pic in which, following the space between the trees, it seems it splits in two, then they joins again beforw the half of the fairway..but i really can't be sure. Anyway..my headache started when, cheking a video made by 4 Korean guys i found on Youtube that plays the course, i noticed a series of red stakes on hole 1, placed exactly where starts the trees. These red stakes are near the bunker immediately before the green and they runs toward the half of the fairway. And this apparently makes no sense, if the rule is that the red stakes are placed immediately before the lateral water hazard because, as you can see, there are a good amount of meters between the pond and the point in which red stakes are placed (even considering that checking the pic you must count some meter less because the leaves cover the trunk and the exact point where the stakes are placed, i mean). Do you think is possible they are placed at some distance from the pond and they indicates simply the pond, in the end? Or do you think some creek goes also there? So I took a look at this and placed red dots (on map below) where I think you are suggesting. This would totally be in line with marking a golf courses for hazards. The reason for the red stakes on #1 isn't because there's water near or in the trees left of of the green. They are there to help the speed of play, especially if someone really cranks it into the trees on that left side of the hole. Golfers would see the red stakes and be entitled to relief outside the trees, not nearer the hole. It kind of works a big like out-of-bounds in this case. If a golfer hit in the trees and spent forever looking for their ball and started to wonder if it went in and to the water on #9 then without the red stakes they would have to take relief on #9, since that would keep the water between the last point of entry and the green. This wouldn't be practical. Instead a golf can shank into the trees on #1, throw his hands in the air, and just drop at the point of entry and keep playing. I've seen this before at a course I built called Island Springs on #8. There's a pond way behind a treeline and the stakes were put at the treeline instead of the pond for the same reasons. At least - the red dots show where I'd have marked red stakes. I'm not sure how far back to the tee I would go as I can't tell if that creek on #9 keeps going to near the green. If it does then I'd take red stakes also back to the tee on #1. (NOTE: I put red dots by the tee on #9 - I now think I would have went yellow along the tee then transition to red after the tee since the water can be kept between the last point of entry and the pin easily) Hope that helps and here's the sat image I was using to lookup this situation at Nine Bridges...
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jul 1, 2020 6:27:08 GMT -5
@greenside thank you for the very clear and detailed answer. I'm very happy for both the help and the fact that your answer fits perfectly with the other answers i received, totally clarifying every possible doubt. Being not a golfer, i was in doubt because in the rules i found it was said that red stakes indicates a lateral water hazards, and although i was thinking it was not possible, in the specific situation, i preferred to ask..and i'm really happy i do it. All you guys are great! Your help is always enormously appreciated.
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