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Post by claybagel on Mar 10, 2015 11:07:08 GMT -5
this is tgc tours, if you want to discuss the games difficulty or course difficulty, head on over to the hb forums. if all you want is a challenging course, why bother playing a tournament, you can play any course you wish at any time in single player. have all the challenge you want there. Having the challenge of a course and having the challenge of a tournament field is not (and should not be) mutually exclusive. |
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 10, 2015 11:09:30 GMT -5
I think it becomes an issue with score compression. On courses that are less of a challenge than others, going to the OP in this thread, there comes a point when there is no distinction between players at the top of the leaderboard. We haven't had that happen yet, but I do think it could come. There could be a tournament where say the top 3-5 players all play perfect golf and shoot the exact same score. More challenge in the courses (for the top tours) offers opportunities for separation. It offers a chance for movement in the leaderboards, and ultimately would lead to more exciting results, and more engaging tournaments for the competitors. There might be some things on the horizon that could help, independent of the courses... round by round winds for example. But until that happens, course difficulty is really the only thing that can be looked at. Thank you for understanding the point. Of course the best players will still be at the top, there would, and should be more of a distinction of who are the best players are if the average scores were closer to 70 than 60. If a guy shoots 59 when the average score is 70, he's picking up 11 strokes on the field. If a guy shoots 53 when the average is 60 he only picks up 7 strokes on the field. The lower the average score, the more holes become irrelevant in the outcome of the tourney. To me, that's not healthy competition. |
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Post by mcbogga on Mar 10, 2015 16:05:21 GMT -5
I like that my "compression" seems to have caught on. Score compression is a bad thing and will kill competition.
The key issue is that the relative difficulty between birdie and eagle on most holes is too large. Birdie is too easy and eagle hole out is a fluke. We need holes or game mechanics that make the relative difficulty more similar to the real game of golf (birdie realistic but par the norm). Putting sink percentages are the key culprit in making birdies too frequent.
Even though it's not perfect - no grid play achieves the par/birdie balance and ups the requirements on nailing the approach shots to get birdies when 10 feet is no gimme anymore.
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 10, 2015 16:37:58 GMT -5
I really enjoy the no grid play, however 90% of players don't have the patience to play that way. I think the only solution is to make the greens more difficult. Putting is insanely easy. I get pissed if I miss 20 footers.
Check out the putting percentages on pgatour.com. Even 1 putt percentage from 1-5 feet is around 55%. Does anyone honestly believe the pros would be hitting only 55% if the cup was located on 3ft radius flat areas? I hit 83% of medium putts, not sure what distance they calculate as medium. The greens are not even close to difficult enough.
With easy greens, there is no difference on the scorecard from 3ft approach shots to 15 ft approach shots. That's a problem for competition.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2015 16:42:45 GMT -5
this is tgc tours, if you want to discuss the games difficulty or course difficulty, head on over to the hb forums. if all you want is a challenging course, why bother playing a tournament, you can play any course you wish at any time in single player. have all the challenge you want there. So your way of having a discussion is to tell me that because i see the game slightly differently to you i should neither post here (in a thread about low scores i might add) or even participate in the tournaments. Got it  not at all, im just saying your argument was very poor, you are saying you want a challenge vs the course and the field does not matter to you, so I say either bring that up at hb or play single player on the courses you want to play. Low scores is not a problem....because not everyone is gunna shoot a low score, half the field give or take will miss a pga/euro cut every week, is there not any challenge to make a cut on any given course? if you think not, then tell that to the guys who miss it. then after one makes the cut, the challenge is to do the best you can do so you finish really well....those finishing last, you think they are complaining their scores are "too low". Really and truely, each week, only one person can say he was not challenged, and half the time he would be telling a lie. everyone else failed. your best finish in your sig says 12th, and your wr is 74th, not sure if that is updated, but.....i see you have plenty of room for improvement, there is your personal challenge. |
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Post by dlw1964 on Mar 10, 2015 16:59:42 GMT -5
The real question is will there be a course we play this year on tour where the winner doesn't reach -40? Magnolia? Just finished a practice tour and shot 44 under.  Love this course. |
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Andy Tracy
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 146 
TGCT Name: Andy Tracy
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Post by Andy Tracy on Mar 10, 2015 17:05:10 GMT -5
The real question is will there be a course we play this year on tour where the winner doesn't reach -40? Magnolia? Just finished a practice tour and shot 44 under. Love this course. What's the tour? |
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Post by dlw1964 on Mar 10, 2015 17:56:50 GMT -5
Just finished a practice tour and shot 44 under. Love this course. What's the tour? On the ps4 "Magnolia National - Master's Practice" It has no deadline. Unlimited tries. |
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Post by mcbogga on Mar 10, 2015 18:30:20 GMT -5
I really enjoy the no grid play, however 90% of players don't have the patience to play that way. I think the only solution is to make the greens more difficult. Putting is insanely easy. I get pissed if I miss 20 footers. Check out the putting percentages on pgatour.com. Even 1 putt percentage from 1-5 feet is around 55%. Does anyone honestly believe the pros would be hitting only 55% if the cup was located on 3ft radius flat areas? I hit 83% of medium putts, not sure what distance they calculate as medium. The greens are not even close to difficult enough. With easy greens, there is no difference on the scorecard from 3ft approach shots to 15 ft approach shots. That's a problem for competition. Making greens difficult enough would probably mean making them unrealistic and "tricked up" though... Agree 100% with your comment on approach shots. Pros are close to 98% from 3feet - then there is a rapid drop off to the 50% make distance of 8 feet. |
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 10, 2015 20:05:21 GMT -5
I don't think the core problem of all those low scores are the courses!
It's the game (mechanics) that is to easy! I still enjoy it, don't get me wrong.
Just my 2 cents...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2015 20:38:31 GMT -5
It really cracks me up seeing these posts about the scoring being too low or the courses too easy or the mechanics are flawed. Please no offense meant to the OP, but for someone who has very limited playing time, (like probably the majority of these tours), this game is NOT too easy. My handicap is +8 and my scoring average is about 64. I'm on the PGA Tour, but struggle to make cuts. But for me, the balance between birdies and pars is perfect. I know without serious skill improvement, particularly in putting, I have little chance for a top 40 finish, but that's ok because I'm challenging myself. For those shooting mid 50's and complaining, I find it hard to believe you just picked up the game and just started shooting theses scores. You practiced, figured mathematics in the game and perfected your skills. If the game gets harder, 80% of us will stop playing it! You'll be left with those tours with 15-20 players, and then this game will fade and disappear. I believe I just read a post by Tim that said after 26,000 rounds on all the tours the average score is 69.3. What's the issue? Are we going to change this game for the top 30 on the PGA tour? You'll just spend extra time learning how to overcome any increased difficulty settings while the rest of us fall farther back. This week I had a blast. I shot a couple low rounds and still I'll get dusted by the real pros on this tour. But I loved pitching from short distance, holing out for eagle and breaking 60 by one. Want to make this harder? Play with opposite hand. Play only in high winds. Swing with your eyes closed. The game is just right for most of us who will never have a prayer of winning.
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Post by kulch on Mar 10, 2015 20:58:32 GMT -5
TGC is still harder than any golf game prior, and better and thats what matters to most
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 10, 2015 21:14:04 GMT -5
It really cracks me up seeing these posts about the scoring being too low or the courses too easy or the mechanics are flawed. Please no offense meant to the OP, but for someone who has very limited playing time, (like probably the majority of these tours), this game is NOT too easy. My handicap is +8 and my scoring average is about 64. I'm on the PGA Tour, but struggle to make cuts. But for me, the balance between birdies and pars is perfect. I know without serious skill improvement, particularly in putting, I have little chance for a top 40 finish, but that's ok because I'm challenging myself. For those shooting mid 50's and complaining, I find it hard to believe you just picked up the game and just started shooting theses scores. You practiced, figured mathematics in the game and perfected your skills. If the game gets harder, 80% of us will stop playing it! You'll be left with those tours with 15-20 players, and then this game will fade and disappear. I believe I just read a post by Tim that said after 26,000 rounds on all the tours the average score is 69.3. What's the issue? Are we going to change this game for the top 30 on the PGA tour? You'll just spend extra time learning how to overcome any increased difficulty settings while the rest of us fall farther back. This week I had a blast. I shot a couple low rounds and still I'll get dusted by the real pros on this tour. But I loved pitching from short distance, holing out for eagle and breaking 60 by one. Want to make this harder? Play with opposite hand. Play only in high winds. Swing with your eyes closed. The game is just right for most of us who will never have a prayer of winning. That's kind of funny that you say you have limited playing time and average 64 and the game isn't too easy? really think about that. keep in mind, i'm not talking about the champion or web tours. But I wouldn't expect the real PGA to start using public courses down the street and watching guys shoot 55. imo a tour labeled the PGA and Euro should be using equivalent courses to their real counterpart. Especially when it's completely possible to do so. |
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xusemagru
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 115
TGCT Name: Ryan O'Donnell
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Post by xusemagru on Mar 10, 2015 22:09:59 GMT -5
I really enjoy the no grid play, however 90% of players don't have the patience to play that way. I think the only solution is to make the greens more difficult. Putting is insanely easy. I get pissed if I miss 20 footers. Check out the putting percentages on pgatour.com. Even 1 putt percentage from 1-5 feet is around 55%. Does anyone honestly believe the pros would be hitting only 55% if the cup was located on 3ft radius flat areas? I hit 83% of medium putts, not sure what distance they calculate as medium. The greens are not even close to difficult enough. With easy greens, there is no difference on the scorecard from 3ft approach shots to 15 ft approach shots. That's a problem for competition. Making greens difficult enough would probably mean making them unrealistic and "tricked up" though... Agree 100% with your comment on approach shots. Pros are close to 98% from 3feet - then there is a rapid drop off to the 50% make distance of 8 feet. I haven't read this whole thread but I do believe the courses are a bit too easy, These examples above are the major reason why. Putts inside 20 feet on some of these greens are way too easy. However, if someone makes greens that are a little more undulated or with more break, people start complaining that they are tricked out and unrealistic. The course being played on the Euro tour this week is a perfect example. This is a GREAT course with tricky greens that are fair. 10-20 foot putts aren't automatic and they shouldn't be. This is the type of course we should be playing on the pga or euro tour. it a no win situation for these designers |
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Post by Matt10 on Mar 11, 2015 0:04:37 GMT -5
The course designers will win when people start respecting their courses for what it is, golf courses, which require game management, practice and procedure. The game of golf is a grind - not mindless point aim, move right analog back and forth. That's how the majority want to play. That is why you have these discussions because people are tired of the fact that the majority wants it this way. It's a quality over quantity thing, and at some point the fact that that there is so much quantity of unrealism, the quality gets filtered out.
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