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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Mar 31, 2020 8:14:59 GMT -5
Time to give this one a fair review. 4 rounds and can manage a +5 now. The challenge of this course is unique, in a good way. Very few chances to score, so you really have to pay attention. More often than not it seems pars are easier from off the green. These greens are absolute roller coasters. Any putt over 15 ft. is really a lag putt, so even if you're on the green, you still don't want to attack the pin. Know how to chip, flop, pitch and when to do it. This is a real test of every shot and club in your arsenal. It is truly a fun course to play, start to finish. Definitely not for the meek.
Aesthetically it's an absolute beauty. The views from everywhere are well done. It's an excellent example of how to make a hole pop from all 360 degrees.
Well done, Ben, should be a contender for sure. Your best work so far and that's saying a lot.
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chiefranja
Caddy
Posts: 40
TGCT Name: Nathan Verma
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by chiefranja on Mar 31, 2020 14:12:00 GMT -5
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Post by rhino4life on Mar 31, 2020 20:02:19 GMT -5
After reigning back my anger I fell this course is a beautiful piece of art. Absolutely loved everything about the layout and the planting. The greens however (for me) were just too wild and I may lean more toward liking them more if they were not so damn big. I love some green character on courses, I just wish this was toned down just a bit. Pin placements were not "xbox tempo" friendly. I will play this again on my own however because its like a train wreck....I just cannot look the other direction.  |
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Post by b101 on Apr 1, 2020 0:25:57 GMT -5
After reigning back my anger I fell this course is a beautiful piece of art. Absolutely loved everything about the layout and the planting. The greens however (for me) were just too wild and I may lean more toward liking them more if they were not so damn big. I love some green character on courses, I just wish this was toned down just a bit. Pin placements were not "xbox tempo" friendly. I will play this again on my own however because its like a train wreck....I just cannot look the other direction. Yeah, a quick word on the greens. Giant and crazy undulating is 100% deliberate and I know will piss people off. A couple of reasons for this: 1) Streamsong Black inspiration. Check those greens out - they are HUGE and really undulating. Reasons outlined in a previous post. 2) Difficulty. When the best players in the game are great at chipping - how do you challenge them? Put them outside of the green grid, give them mad putts and make them really question whether going for it is a good idea. Make two putts at times damn near impossible, where a chip would have been trivial. I wanted this course to change the way you approached it and make you really, really think about where you miss. In short, yep, the runoffs in the greens are super severe, but it's a Major course that is simply not designed for 90% of the people playing this game. They are all there for a reason and it is not a friendly reason lol. My rationale was always that I wanted and needed this course to be polarising. With that in mind, you have no idea how pleased your post makes me, because it means I nailed what I was after - a good-looking, fun course that pisses you off and gets you back for more. P.S. The members' version and a slightly softened Tour version are in the works. |
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Post by wood92 on Apr 1, 2020 9:41:51 GMT -5
I’ll probably be saying this a lot with these contest courses but wow just incredible. Got my arse handed to me but I did manage an eagle on 16 so every cloud and all that. Good luck in the comp.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Apr 1, 2020 10:01:41 GMT -5
After reigning back my anger I fell this course is a beautiful piece of art. Absolutely loved everything about the layout and the planting. The greens however (for me) were just too wild and I may lean more toward liking them more if they were not so damn big. I love some green character on courses, I just wish this was toned down just a bit. Pin placements were not "xbox tempo" friendly. I will play this again on my own however because its like a train wreck....I just cannot look the other direction. Yeah, a quick word on the greens. Giant and crazy undulating is 100% deliberate and I know will piss people off. A couple of reasons for this: 1) Streamsong Black inspiration. Check those greens out - they are HUGE and really undulating. Reasons outlined in a previous post. 2) Difficulty. When the best players in the game are great at chipping - how do you challenge them? Put them outside of the green grid, give them mad putts and make them really question whether going for it is a good idea. Make two putts at times damn near impossible, where a chip would have been trivial. I wanted this course to change the way you approached it and make you really, really think about where you miss. In short, yep, the runoffs in the greens are super severe, but it's a Major course that is simply not designed for 90% of the people playing this game. They are all there for a reason and it is not a friendly reason lol. My rationale was always that I wanted and needed this course to be polarising. With that in mind, you have no idea how pleased your post makes me, because it means I nailed what I was after - a good-looking, fun course that pisses you off and gets you back for more. P.S. The member's version and a slightly softened Tour version are in the works. I'm glad you said that because reading through this thread I could picture you staring at your screen grinning like a psychopath. To add to that I started a round 4 putted the first hole then shut it down and started cleaning my garage. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2020 23:43:35 GMT -5
Really enjoyed the balls of the designer to produce greens like these. Intrigued me so I played all four rounds TST style in US Open (Very Firm / Very Fast) conditions.
It’s a par-71 but really it could/should be a par-76 with five long par 4s that could easily be par 5s. Too many par 4.5s for my liking which is a cheap way of producing harder scores relative to par but wow these greens!
For purpose of my score I’m calling it a par-74 with holes 2, 14 and 18 being par-5s in my little world. Means I ended with an eagle hehe.
Rds 1-3
Rd 4
79/76/78/77 (+14*) or (+26)
Going to play through again in moderate member conditions as I’m intrigued. After that, I may also play one last time in US Open conditions, with the added bonus of being able to chip/flop on greens as on greens like these it should be allowed lol.
Edit: off and away with a 71/66 (-11*) or (-5) in moderate conditions. 18 shots better than the US Open conditions at the same stage. Bloody love these greens. Will play the rest tomorrow.
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Post by b101 on Apr 2, 2020 5:48:45 GMT -5
Really enjoyed the balls of the designer to produce greens like these. Intrigued me so I played all four rounds TST style in US Open (Very Firm / Very Fast) conditions. It’s a par-71 but really it could/should be a par-76 with five long par 4s that could easily be par 5s. Too many par 4.5s for my liking which is a cheap way of producing harder scores relative to par but wow these greens! For purpose of my score I’m calling it a par-74 with holes 2, 14 and 18 being par-5s in my little world. Means I ended with an eagle hehe. Rds 1-3 Rd 4 79/76/78/77 (+14*) or (+26) Going to play through again in moderate member conditions as I’m intrigued. After that, I may also play one last time in US Open conditions, with the added bonus of being able to chip/flop on greens as on greens like these it should be allowed lol. Edit: off and away with a 71/66 (-11*) or (-5) in moderate conditions. 18 shots better than the US Open conditions at the same stage. Bloody love these greens. Will play the rest tomorrow. Thanks! I’d say the only one that’s a proper 4.5 based on distance alone is 14 - that one gives you all world left to hit into, but with the downside of a slightly longer approach, off a side slope and an angle that brings the front right mound on the green right in line with your approach. You can go for the fast over the bunker on the right, but it’s a tough line to hold. I really wanted people to see this one as a par five in all bar number - it’s a US Open style hole where I wanted you to see coming away with par as a shot gained on the field before heading into the scoring swing that follows (two short holes and par five). I played a lot with the routing beforehand and tried to focus on little psychological moments like that, whether you realise it or not. You’re right that there are a load of other par 4.5s, but I hope I can persuade you that they were done with care for variety 🙂. With the second, it can play as little as an 8i in to the front pin, where you can use the slope to the right to feed the ball toward that pin. Equally, for the back pin, you actually want to be going left of it and trickling it in off the side slope, which means landing it on the raised portion in the middle of the green. With the hole playing with a tailwind into this pin, it’ll take some really good judgement of distance to pull that off. Alternatively, the easy par play to that pin is just to smash it long and chip back up the slope. Leaving it short is dead and right is a tricky two putt. So, yes, it’s a 4.5, but more on precision than on brute distance. With 18, it’s a short par five design (see Greenstone 15 and Kaiuma 8) I’ve always loved that I’ve turned into a long four. It’s perfect for a US Open style closer as you have to be left off the tee to open up the green for a fade into the tucked pins. That brings water into play and you’ll be off a side hill lie with wind trying to push you further into the water - a really tough tee shot with narrow margin for error. If you bail out right, you worsen the angle, increase the impact of the wind and have a worse side slope. As a par five, it would tempt you into going for it but you can lay up and try to chip and putt for birdie. As a four, you have no choice but to take the uncomfortable shot on. That said, you can lay up. Position A1 for layups is short of the green, with water left and a cheeky little spine that forces you to play further left than you’d want for a layup. Again, the further right you go, the worse the shot in. Nine is also perhaps best played as a five as well. The green all flows away from you and to front pins it’s often better to miss it short. The more you play the course, the more you should discover these little bits. Using the large greens just allowed for so many little subtleties with angles and approaches, as well as massively changing how holes play on different pins. Yeah... lots of madness going on inside my head lol. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 7:06:50 GMT -5
Yeah the green slopes bring some great thinking into plan. I’ve now played 10 rounds around here (8 on black tees and 2 on green tees). I still think there are too many 4.5 holes from the blacks playing as par 4s. Don’t get me wrong I love a par 4.5 but from the green tees the course plays even better. The long par 4s (2, 9, 12, 14, 18) are still truly long scary par 4s from the greens and not just par 5s in all but name.
Black Tees
79/76/78/77 (US Open Conditions) +26 (+14 to a par-74)
71/66/75/78 (Members Conditions) +6 (-6 to a par-74)
Green Tees
72/72 (US Open Conditions) Currently +2.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 10:44:47 GMT -5
Finished up my rounds here. Black Tees Conditions - US Open: 79/76/78/77 (+26) Conditions - Members: 71/66/75/78 (+6) Green Tees: Conditions - US Open: 72/72/74/81 (+15) Conditions - Members: 70/69/70/75 (E) Sunday pins are brutal lol, watch out for the 4th pin. Green tees are far superior, hard as nails still but not silly billy hard like the blacks. Thanks for the course b101. Good luck in the tournament. |
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Post by b101 on Apr 2, 2020 10:50:10 GMT -5
Glad you enjoyed! Green tees can be more fun for sure, as they take a lot of the hazards out of play that were intended to challenge you off the tee. I've been using the greens a lot during my playtests for different pins. It will also depend on what direction you set the winds to as those will change how the longer par fours play and whether they are too hard (hence the suggested conditions in the start of the thread).
Stay tuned for the two additional versions - should be with you some point tomorrow once I finish planting the areas of the Members' version that were previously occupied by grandstands.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 10:54:06 GMT -5
Yeah I played in only moderate wind. North round 1, east round 2, south round 3, west round 4. Always do that when I play-test courses. Gives a great feel for the course. A great course should play well in all conditions. The blacks are too long in moderate wind, hate to see what they are like in high wind lol.
Will keep my eye out for the new adjusted course coming.
Just for kicks...
Black Tees Average Round: 75.0
Green Tees Average Round: 72.9
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Post by jeffreyb on Apr 2, 2020 12:29:17 GMT -5
Absolutely one of the best courses ever on the TGC. I've been playing True Sim lately and I spent more time staring at the greens!!
I loved it!!
Thanks for the hard work!
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Post by Johnny46Ch1mp0 on Apr 2, 2020 13:36:20 GMT -5
Just played a round and wow! Looked incredible from the pictures and great write up btw, but it played even better than it looked. Some say that the greens were too big, I respectfully disagree. They were perfect for the Streamsong vibe you were going for. Some holes I feel may be a little too long if played into the wind, i think it's hole #14, the 532yd uphill par 4. Other than that it has great variety and very fun from tee to green picking out options and angles with all the nasty slopes on the fairways and greens. I had a blast and will be playing it again. I just played default conditions from the back tees and pin 4. Got 1-3mph winds so basically nothing and shot a 5 under which I though was a good challenge for a major course. Hole #11 gave me the craziest hole in one I've had on the game so far, wish I was recording... I hit the flagstick just under the flag and shot me almost at a 90 degree angle to the right, the ball rolled back off the cradled slope and back into the hole. Had some other fun situations with the crazy greens. Planting, bunkering and surfacing was spot on as well. Again, making it feel very Streamsong like. Great job on this course! 10/10 for me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 13:43:02 GMT -5
Absolutely one of the best courses ever on the TGC. I've been playing True Sim lately and I spent more time staring at the greens!! I loved it!! Thanks for the hard work! Haha yeah, don’t those greens look sexy without grids? |
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