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Post by AFCTUJacko on Mar 12, 2020 17:00:30 GMT -5
An improvement is missing 4 of 5 cuts to making 4 of 5 cuts. Or making every cut to 2 top10s in 5. Winning back to back is much more than an improvement. Something doesn’t smell right. But we still have those convinced against their will. Man, i'm going to have some explaining to do when i win the Masters
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Mar 12, 2020 17:10:36 GMT -5
I noticed the upturn in said players form last week (Three Missed cuts in January to Two wins in Feb/Early march).
Whilst I think in his case it almost certainly is a result of "mastering the push" (there's plenty of evidence that's the case)
I don't really think it's always right to use people's improvement as a stick to beat them with. After all, the whole point of TGCT is to improve so you can reach the top level.
I mean, right now I've missed 4 cuts in 6 events. I'm practicing a lot to remedy that. If i somehow pull it all together and finish really high next week and have a good month does that automatically make me worthy of suspicion? Dangerous road to go down IMO
11 hours ago AFCTUJacko said:
Like I said Bob, in this case it's perfectly clear that was (at least partially) responsible to the upturn in results.
Merely stating that an upturn on results by itself shouldn't be reason to suspect someone.
Not saying you or anyone else is doing that in this thread. But I have seen it plenty of times before when an unfamiliar name appears on the leaderboards and automatically suspected of foul play by some people, without any evidence of any of the other stuff this player had against them.
It's a tangential (perhaps irrelevant) point, but worth making. -------------------------------- Mr. Jack Oliver,- I have put both your responses above; instead of quoting you twice....and I am only responding to your points that I under-lined above.... I pretty much agree with you 100% on everything I have under-lined. Well said. About time someone noted this. Especially a guy who has been around for a long time. (it says you joined in 2014) I will say, it is indeed a dangerous road to go down....but we have already gone down that road you mention above sadly. The minute someone comes in and has success, who is new.....whether they switch platforms, joined 2 days ago, 2 weeks ago, 2 months ago or 2 years ago... Unfortunately, there is a very small group of folks on these forums who just can't fathom anyone 'new' or 'new-ish' having success. Wasn't everyone a new player at some point? So we run around this tedious merry-go-round and just repeat the same thing over and over and over again every week. And some wonder why more players don't post in these forums...Really? I'd love to see the day that players worry about working on their own games instead of always flooding the forums and finding faults with other people who beat them. Yes, the game is flawed...but have some humility. When someone beats me...whether it's by 1 shot or 10 shots...I just need to play better. End of story. Which is why recently; I usually try to congratulate the winners. I know how tough it is to win each week. Regarding players all of a sudden improving (whether it's a little or a lot)...no need to over-complicate things here...here's a secret...spread the word......... .......................................................................... If you putt like a filthy animal from 8 to 25 feet in a tournament...you will finish near/at the top of the leaderboard... If you don't...you will not finish in the top 3. Assuming my tempo is similar...the only difference on when I finish 2nd or 24th is putting. The difference is usually only about 8-12 shots in those 22 spots difference on the leaderboard. Which is 2 to 3 shots per round. Think of how many times you lip out a chip or burn the edge on a 11 and 16 foot putt each round. Seriously....just think about that for a second. In my opinion getting a win = It's 75% a person's putting performance, 5% their ability to hole chips/flops/pitches/scrambling for pars just about everytime when they do miss greens, 10% playing the wind, the loft box correctly, the lie, the lie %, where to land ball on green utilizing slopes and 10% them managing tempo better then most of the field. Why can't someone get hot with the putter for a couple weeks and compete for a win? Or even get the win? Yet all we talk about is people's ball-striking...and thinking someone wins because of how they lofted a 3 iron.... And completely ignore the short game as if it doesn't exist. I just can't comprehend it. If the 'the minute someone new comes...' is aimed towards my post a few pages back and being a part of some groupthink, note that I could have also pointed to a long standing member that also improved themselves a great deal. That person's results change was covered within a PGA thread a bit back. So if aimed at my post note that I don't watch Twitch streams anymore, never use ghost balls, and only cursory glance at the leaderboard for my name and a couple of others that have been here. I would be unaware of who Adam even is if not for a how to post on how to push swing 20 something pages long. I certainly was not actively seeking or leaderboard watch for names jumping up in rank. But given the notoriety of that now closed thread it made me curious.
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 12, 2020 17:53:25 GMT -5
I noticed the upturn in said players form last week (Three Missed cuts in January to Two wins in Feb/Early march).
Whilst I think in his case it almost certainly is a result of "mastering the push" (there's plenty of evidence that's the case)
I don't really think it's always right to use people's improvement as a stick to beat them with. After all, the whole point of TGCT is to improve so you can reach the top level.
I mean, right now I've missed 4 cuts in 6 events. I'm practicing a lot to remedy that. If i somehow pull it all together and finish really high next week and have a good month does that automatically make me worthy of suspicion? Dangerous road to go down IMO
11 hours ago AFCTUJacko said:
Like I said Bob, in this case it's perfectly clear that was (at least partially) responsible to the upturn in results.
Merely stating that an upturn on results by itself shouldn't be reason to suspect someone.
Not saying you or anyone else is doing that in this thread. But I have seen it plenty of times before when an unfamiliar name appears on the leaderboards and automatically suspected of foul play by some people, without any evidence of any of the other stuff this player had against them.
It's a tangential (perhaps irrelevant) point, but worth making. -------------------------------- Mr. Jack Oliver,- I have put both your responses above; instead of quoting you twice....and I am only responding to your points that I under-lined above.... I pretty much agree with you 100% on everything I have under-lined. Well said. About time someone noted this. Especially a guy who has been around for a long time. (it says you joined in 2014) I will say, it is indeed a dangerous road to go down....but we have already gone down that road you mention above sadly. The minute someone comes in and has success, who is new.....whether they switch platforms, joined 2 days ago, 2 weeks ago, 2 months ago or 2 years ago... Unfortunately, there is a very small group of folks on these forums who just can't fathom anyone 'new' or 'new-ish' having success. Wasn't everyone a new player at some point? So we run around this tedious merry-go-round and just repeat the same thing over and over and over again every week. And some wonder why more players don't post in these forums...Really? I'd love to see the day that players worry about working on their own games instead of always flooding the forums and finding faults with other people who beat them. Yes, the game is flawed...but have some humility. When someone beats me...whether it's by 1 shot or 10 shots...I just need to play better. End of story. Which is why recently; I usually try to congratulate the winners. I know how tough it is to win each week. Regarding players all of a sudden improving (whether it's a little or a lot)...no need to over-complicate things here...here's a secret...spread the word......... .......................................................................... If you putt like a filthy animal from 8 to 25 feet in a tournament...you will finish near/at the top of the leaderboard... If you don't...you will not finish in the top 3. Assuming my tempo is similar...the only difference on when I finish 2nd or 24th is putting. The difference is usually only about 8-12 shots in those 22 spots difference on the leaderboard. Which is 2 to 3 shots per round. Think of how many times you lip out a chip or burn the edge on a 11 and 16 foot putt each round. Seriously....just think about that for a second. In my opinion getting a win = It's 75% a person's putting performance, 5% their ability to hole chips/flops/pitches/scrambling for pars just about everytime when they do miss greens, 10% playing the wind, the loft box correctly, the lie, the lie %, where to land ball on green utilizing slopes and 10% them managing tempo better then most of the field. Why can't someone get hot with the putter for a couple weeks and compete for a win? Or even get the win? Yet all we talk about is people's ball-striking...and thinking someone wins because of how they lofted a 3 iron.... And completely ignore the short game as if it doesn't exist. I just can't comprehend it. Agree with most all of that regards posting a score - the only thing that is in question, is that a skilled player, as we most are, will always hole more putts when given the opportunity to be closer to the hole. The assistance that is sometimes on offer with certain mechanics is the only thing I suppose is endlessly debated. Don’t agree at all with the notion that anyone doing well gets flamed...
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Mar 12, 2020 18:01:10 GMT -5
-------------------------------- Mr. Jack Oliver,- I have put both your responses above; instead of quoting you twice....and I am only responding to your points that I under-lined above.... I pretty much agree with you 100% on everything I have under-lined. Well said. About time someone noted this. Especially a guy who has been around for a long time. (it says you joined in 2014) I will say, it is indeed a dangerous road to go down....but we have already gone down that road you mention above sadly. The minute someone comes in and has success, who is new.....whether they switch platforms, joined 2 days ago, 2 weeks ago, 2 months ago or 2 years ago... Unfortunately, there is a very small group of folks on these forums who just can't fathom anyone 'new' or 'new-ish' having success. Wasn't everyone a new player at some point? So we run around this tedious merry-go-round and just repeat the same thing over and over and over again every week. And some wonder why more players don't post in these forums...Really? I'd love to see the day that players worry about working on their own games instead of always flooding the forums and finding faults with other people who beat them. Yes, the game is flawed...but have some humility. When someone beats me...whether it's by 1 shot or 10 shots...I just need to play better. End of story. Which is why recently; I usually try to congratulate the winners. I know how tough it is to win each week. Regarding players all of a sudden improving (whether it's a little or a lot)...no need to over-complicate things here...here's a secret...spread the word......... .......................................................................... If you putt like a filthy animal from 8 to 25 feet in a tournament...you will finish near/at the top of the leaderboard... If you don't...you will not finish in the top 3. Assuming my tempo is similar...the only difference on when I finish 2nd or 24th is putting. The difference is usually only about 8-12 shots in those 22 spots difference on the leaderboard. Which is 2 to 3 shots per round. Think of how many times you lip out a chip or burn the edge on a 11 and 16 foot putt each round. Seriously....just think about that for a second. In my opinion getting a win = It's 75% a person's putting performance, 5% their ability to hole chips/flops/pitches/scrambling for pars just about everytime when they do miss greens, 10% playing the wind, the loft box correctly, the lie, the lie %, where to land ball on green utilizing slopes and 10% them managing tempo better then most of the field. Why can't someone get hot with the putter for a couple weeks and compete for a win? Or even get the win? Yet all we talk about is people's ball-striking...and thinking someone wins because of how they lofted a 3 iron.... And completely ignore the short game as if it doesn't exist. I just can't comprehend it. Agree with most all of that - the only thing that is in question, is that a skilled player, as we most are, will always hole more putts when given the opportunity to be closer to the hole. The assistance that is sometimes on offer with certain mechanics is the only thing I suppose is endlessly debated. Yep. It can be simultaneously true that some players had a ball striking advantage that has now been taken away, but that it wasn't solely that advantage that made them shoot the scores they did.
Think anyone expecting this change to dramatically alter leaderboards will be disappointed tbh. A few will be pulled, most of them will re-adjust. The ones who can do all that stuff Vitaly mentions in his post will continue to regularly beat the medium players.
That's fine with me as long as its a level playing field
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Post by CuseHokie on Mar 12, 2020 18:17:59 GMT -5
An improvement is missing 4 of 5 cuts to making 4 of 5 cuts. Or making every cut to 2 top10s in 5. Winning back to back is much more than an improvement. Something doesn’t smell right. But we still have those convinced against their will. Man, i'm going to have some explaining to do when i win the Masters That’s just it. Take 100%. And slice it across all the pga players. Who has the highest %? And so whoever wins... that’s great. But then wins again the next week. Infinitely smaller odds right. And then take past history as leading indicators. Anyone can shoot a crazy round. Or two. And if you shoot them both the same week you can probably win. But 8 straight out of no where is 🤔.
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Post by bassman70 on Mar 12, 2020 18:24:26 GMT -5
So...do I have to stop using the scripts I get from Doyley
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Post by bassman70 on Mar 12, 2020 18:25:03 GMT -5
Had to have a little fun here
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 12, 2020 18:33:01 GMT -5
Agree with most all of that - the only thing that is in question, is that a skilled player, as we most are, will always hole more putts when given the opportunity to be closer to the hole. The assistance that is sometimes on offer with certain mechanics is the only thing I suppose is endlessly debated. Yep. It can be simultaneously true that some players had a ball striking advantage that has now been taken away, but that it wasn't solely that advantage that made them shoot the scores they did.
Think anyone expecting this change to dramatically alter leaderboards will be disappointed tbh. A few will be pulled, most of them will re-adjust. The ones who can do all that stuff Vitaly mentions in his post will continue to regularly beat the medium players.
That's fine with me as long as its a level playing field
Absolutely. Nobody in their right mind thinks anybody that can win on PGA doesn’t have a game outside of getting a bit of help with consistency of swing. There’s a lot more to do than that. It’ll be interesting to see how the leaderboard shapes up, that’s for sure.
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Post by CuseHokie on Mar 12, 2020 18:37:52 GMT -5
I just hope Doyley doesn’t cancel The Masters over covid19.
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Mar 12, 2020 19:13:09 GMT -5
I just hope Doyley doesn’t cancel The Masters over covid19. Maybe we can finally get rid of the crowds now. :-O
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Post by rcknfrewld on Mar 12, 2020 21:25:06 GMT -5
You're either really obtuse or...No I think obtuse fits you perfectly. And again. Just because you say something is so; doesn't make it..no matter how many of your minions I can count on one hand that have their heads stuck up so far your arse that they believe every little word you spew is gospel. Edit: And I'm not looking for you to comment on my every post like you do. I don't want to hear from you. Edit: Your logic is flawed. Dear me James... how can you argue with results? I’m saying what is undeniably the truth. Your last 4 weeks on PGA are a better finishing position average than any previous 4 week period since your “cleansing”. That cannot be questioned. It is very simple maths. No flaws in the logic whatsoever, unless you are now questioning the very principles of basic mathematics. So, since you turned off the feedback, you are doing better. Well done 👍 No need to get nasty about it. Let's try again. Just because my scores for four weeks got increasingly better doesn't mean I'm improving. I stunk it up big time this week. But let's just say I am improving for argument's sake. To say that feedback off is the reason is highly obtuse and simplistic on your part. You have no idea all the factors that go into someone playing well. I mentioned mood, girlfriend, heck clothing you wear, posture, weight loss/gain, quitting a habit, text from ex wife, stock market crashing etc...I could write a book about all the factors that go into playing well. And for you to think it's just feedback off shows how obtuse or maybe you're just being subconsciously disingenuous and avoiding having to face the fact that you struggle making cuts. And you are in fact insinuating I have shot feedback turned off so I can hide flicking from everyone or whatever. I wouldn't have announced I turned off feedback if I was... You give me a headache. You strike me as a person who easily and eagerly misunderstands.
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Post by materialization on Mar 12, 2020 23:23:35 GMT -5
Wow this is quite the war going on right now.
Let me just put some things into perspective just so we can get back on track here..
Say for example, this is my ass ( | ) , and one of these brackets is the direction of my finger < or >.
( | ) < this means I am pointing directly at my ass because its the direction we are all heading towards if we don't get our heads out of our own ass and see the bigger picture.
We all love this game, and we all wanna do the best we can but please remember that is what we all have in common ok?
This game has so many flaws, some of which aren't even realized to so many. It is so clear when we know the game is to blame for the vast majority of our own issues we still find a way to take it out on each other. I'm not here to be some piece maker or Samaritan but I think even the most level headed of people will realize by now, we are playing a broken game that has been pretty much saved by tgctours.com. It is giving HB exposure, publicity and custom and we are all part of that credit whether we know it or not.
Continue your disagreements, arguments or fights alongside this post as i'm sure you will, I only ask one thing. Remember we all love golf, love competing along side the tour and we all want to respect each other, if not? then why are you here? I'm done.
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 13, 2020 1:29:03 GMT -5
Dear me James... how can you argue with results? I’m saying what is undeniably the truth. Your last 4 weeks on PGA are a better finishing position average than any previous 4 week period since your “cleansing”. That cannot be questioned. It is very simple maths. No flaws in the logic whatsoever, unless you are now questioning the very principles of basic mathematics. So, since you turned off the feedback, you are doing better. Well done 👍 No need to get nasty about it. Let's try again. Just because my scores for four weeks got increasingly better doesn't mean I'm improving. I stunk it up big time this week. But let's just say I am improving for argument's sake. To say that feedback off is the reason is highly obtuse and simplistic on your part. You have no idea all the factors that go into someone playing well. I mentioned mood, girlfriend, heck clothing you wear, posture, weight loss/gain, quitting a habit, text from ex wife, stock market crashing etc...I could write a book about all the factors that go into playing well. And for you to think it's just feedback off shows how obtuse or maybe you're just being subconsciously disingenuous and avoiding having to face the fact that you struggle making cuts. And you are in fact insinuating I have shot feedback turned off so I can hide flicking from everyone or whatever. I wouldn't have announced I turned off feedback if I was... You give me a headache. You strike me as a person who easily and eagerly misunderstands. I didn’t ever say that it was exclusively the reason, and to think that I could possibly think that it’s the only tangible reason for your improvement in form is quite bizarre, but that’s where you’ve led this. There is, however a direct correlation. I’m not insinuating that you are hiding anything from anyone. Just keep playing, keep improving and passing the API. Best of luck to you. I wish you all the best with it. Healthy competition is what we all want. This back and forth is surely more boring for everyone else than it is even for me... At the end of the day James, if you stick your head above the parapet and chat crap, telling us all how you’d be top 5 each week of you still flicked, insinuating that making cuts is an issue for lesser mortals, and garbage of the likes, someone will undoubtedly question that. Was me this time, probably due to the fact I’ve little patience with you and your disruptive, usually pointless, contributions. But this is the internet, it’s a free world (rckn), and we’re all entitled to our opinions and contributions. So as I’ve said many times in this pointless little dance we’ve done - best of luck to you, hopefully you keep improving, keep your hair on and keep emptying your sack and whatever else is working for you. I’ll get back to diligently working on making more cuts 😂 Let’s leave it there.
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Post by titan30003 on Mar 13, 2020 6:18:45 GMT -5
I've only just now understood rcknfrewld's name. I'm dumb.
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Post by GW_Hope on Mar 13, 2020 6:35:49 GMT -5
Wow this is quite the war going on right now. Let me just put some things into perspective just so we can get back on track here.. Say for example, this is my ass ( | ) , and one of these brackets is the direction of my finger < or >. ( | ) < this means I am pointing directly at my ass because its the direction we are all heading towards if we don't get our heads out of our own ass and see the bigger picture. We all love this game, and we all wanna do the best we can but please remember that is what we all have in common ok? This game has so many flaws, some of which aren't even realized to so many. It is so clear when we know the game is to blame for the vast majority of our own issues we still find a way to take it out on each other. I'm not here to be some piece maker or Samaritan but I think even the most level headed of people will realize by now, we are playing a broken game that has been pretty much saved by tgctours.com. It is giving HB exposure, publicity and custom and we are all part of that credit whether we know it or not. Continue your disagreements, arguments or fights alongside this post as i'm sure you will, I only ask one thing. Remember we all love golf, love competing along side the tour and we all want to respect each other, if not? then why are you here? I'm done. Good post, I agree. I think some of the problem is many people want to play this as a golf game and not a sole arithmetic competition. Let’s face it, you take out the skill portion and what’s left? Not much. Most everybody could adopt the broken swing mechanics and do much better but where is the fun in that? It already takes -25 to make a cut, and with a Wild West tour I could easily see -30 missing. If somebody made this tour using TGC2 I would join in a heartbeat. If there was a way to have a separate tour for players who like god mode I would be for that too.
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