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Post by b101 on Feb 10, 2020 11:21:59 GMT -5
Give it to me guys. I want to come out of this thread bloodied! Would love any feedback you have. I think it's a great course for skins with friends. Because of the wide array of potential scores for any particular hole. I will continue to stand by my belief that the designers put a ton of time into sculpting the course for a particular firmness and speed... so when we alter those over 4 rounds any given week, it takes the dozens (hundreds?) of hours the designer spent ensuring the course played well and throws it out the window... and now we have to hope a handful of volunteers can audit it on 3 different platforms across 4 pins across 5 firmness settings, 6 lighting settings, etc etc... just seems silly. Simplify the process to make it easier on everyone, that's all. A green speed of 153 that is set to 187 that causes balls to never hold greens is just as frustrating as a course that defaults to 183 that gets set to 144 so every ball hangs up on the tiered backstop where the yellow slope turns to green. We all play the same conditions, but that doesn't mean they aren't stupid and just not enjoyable for the spirit of the designer's work. Agree, which is why, whenever I’ve had courses on PGA, Dale has asked for suggestions from me as to what the settings should be. I doubt he strays from them too much. Also, we can’t set anything about default winds (strength or direction) in the designer. Additionally there are some courses which are set up for variety. As an example, with Kaiuma on KF this week I’ve suggested the greens at 157, 163 and 187, low through very high winds - all of which it can handle. The key is making sure the course can manage them but there’s a reason we look for different conditions. Have a play of the KF rounds and you should see how differently the course plays each time and how much more enjoyable it is. Not suggesting that all condition setups are always perfect, but IMO the benefits are huge in terms of overall playability.
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Post by CuseHokie on Feb 10, 2020 11:37:19 GMT -5
I think it's a great course for skins with friends. Because of the wide array of potential scores for any particular hole. I will continue to stand by my belief that the designers put a ton of time into sculpting the course for a particular firmness and speed... so when we alter those over 4 rounds any given week, it takes the dozens (hundreds?) of hours the designer spent ensuring the course played well and throws it out the window... and now we have to hope a handful of volunteers can audit it on 3 different platforms across 4 pins across 5 firmness settings, 6 lighting settings, etc etc... just seems silly. Simplify the process to make it easier on everyone, that's all. A green speed of 153 that is set to 187 that causes balls to never hold greens is just as frustrating as a course that defaults to 183 that gets set to 144 so every ball hangs up on the tiered backstop where the yellow slope turns to green. We all play the same conditions, but that doesn't mean they aren't stupid and just not enjoyable for the spirit of the designer's work. Agree, which is why, whenever I’ve had courses on PGA, Dale has asked for suggestions from me as to what the settings should be. I doubt he strays from them too much. Also, we can’t set anything about default winds (strength or direction) in the designer. Additionally there are some courses which are set up for variety. As an example, with Kaiuma on KF this week I’ve suggested the greens at 157, 163 and 187, low through very high winds - all of which it can handle. The key is making sure the course can manage them but there’s a reason we look for different conditions. Have a play of the KF rounds and you should see how differently the course plays each time and how much more enjoyable it is. Not suggesting that all condition setups are always perfect, but IMO the benefits are huge in terms of overall playability. My previous post is less about this week, btw... and more just a common observation since TGC2019. I think setting wind directions and at times forcing certain velocities is generally accepted and expected. Some designers even know which directional wind combined with pin is more difficult. I think that's a creative way to make things more challenging without impacting how balls will hold or roll out and maintain the authenticity of the course. I'm probably in the minority on these points but just seems like leaving things as default takes the onus off the scheduler and makes rangering a lot easier. <shrug>
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 10, 2020 11:44:26 GMT -5
Agreed. The quirkier the greens complexes the more I believe they should be left default, at least the speeds.
Anyhoo...
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Post by kendawgallday on Feb 10, 2020 12:05:50 GMT -5
-10 round 1 with a double and a bogey and -8 2nd round...first tourney I've had my swing back -18 prolly won't make it but played much better
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Feb 10, 2020 12:15:04 GMT -5
62-63 and never been more delighted to miss a cut.
Thought i might make it but then bogied the 13th and went 3 yards right on the utterly ridiculous 16th and wound up at the bottom of a cliff playing vertically through a bush Only hole worse than that one is No 7.
Every single niggling little thing that could exist on a course rolled into one.
- Lighting - Lag - Random OOB - Ridiculous run offs on the holes without the OOB so if you miss, it's physically impossible to get up and down, or in some cases, even get it on the green
- Enough elevation changes to give you vertigo if you didn't have it already - Massive hanging lies on every single approach
I'm sure the insta tempo/rent a flick brigade will destroy it, but if you're human and struggling with your swing - it's zero fun. Double punishing you for even the tiniest mistakes. And it still doesn't achieve what's it's supposed to - provide a challenge for the top guys, so what exactly is the point?
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Feb 10, 2020 13:08:35 GMT -5
Every single niggling little thing that could exist on a course rolled into one.
- Lighting - Lag - Random OOB - Ridiculous run offs on the holes without the OOB so if you miss, it's physically impossible to get up and down, or in some cases, even get it on the green
- Enough elevation changes to give you vertigo if you didn't have it already - Massive hanging lies on every single approach
I know...it was great. Glad I have 2 rounds left to play still. Probably one of my Top 3 courses in the game right now.
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Post by TannerBronson on Feb 10, 2020 13:12:54 GMT -5
62-63 and never been more delighted to miss a cut.
Thought i might make it but then bogied the 13th and went 3 yards right on the utterly ridiculous 16th and would up at the bottom of a cliff playing vertically through a bush Only hole worse than that one is No 7.
Every single niggling little thing that could exist on a course rolled into one.
- Lighting - Lag - Random OOB - Ridiculous run offs on the holes without the OOB so if you miss, it's physically impossible to get up and down, or in some cases, even get it on the green
- Enough elevation changes to give you vertigo if you didn't have it already - Massive hanging lies on every single approach
I'm sure the insta tempo/rent a flick brigade will destroy it, but if you're human and struggling with your swing - it's zero fun. Double punishing you for even the tiniest mistakes. And it still doesn't achieve what's it's supposed to - provide a challenge for the top guys, so what exactly is the point?
Sorry you didn’t have a good time. I’ll try to work these things for three over the next three months on my next course. Yea that OB is TERRIBLE and I apologize. Would want to leave you with a question however (just to help myself with my next design), how should I provide a challenge? Sorry again.
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Post by GW_Hope on Feb 10, 2020 13:20:37 GMT -5
Personally I thought the course was fine. Only thing I complain about is the random tempo I had. Not ever sure whose fault if there is any fault. Could be mine?
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Post by boffo on Feb 10, 2020 13:43:06 GMT -5
Don't normally read this thread but my attention was sent in this direction by multiple people so I figured I'd better see what all the hubbub was about. So, while I'm not in desperate need of new rangers at the moment I almost never say no to anyone willing to offer up their time to help the site out. So if any of you PGA'ers want the chance to have some level of input with the courses and conditions that you see on this tour(and other tours if you don't want to just play prospective PGA courses) just send me a message to let me know you're interested and I'll get you the details.
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MikeB
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 255
TGCT Name: Mike Branca
Tour: Elite
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Post by MikeB on Feb 10, 2020 15:32:10 GMT -5
I ranged this course, I think. Cant remember if I posted to it, but I know I've played the course before. I really like this course (I'll probably miss the cut again at -19, so no I dont like it just because I played well). I'm on PC and didnt get any lag thru all 4 rounds yesterday. Didnt get any when playing as a ranger.
But, round 2 I played in complete darkness. Entire greens blacked out. I dont think time of day should be altered at all by schedulers unless the designer did a bad job. Or if it just doesnt make a difference. But with rd 2 I'm putting and I literally couldn't see the club. A couple fairways I got bounces I wasnt expecting at all.
My guess is the designer put the sun in such a position it showed off the slopes and plateaus. If you have it set to noon you're going to see just flat green with no shadows. I actually had a similar thing happen with a course I designed that was used in CC last season. Course was purposely set to clear skies because if the sun got blocked the slopes in fairways were washed out. Maybe lighting in custom day time is something rangers should check???
As for rangering, you check for lag, illegal pins, and if the course can play in max conditions. Other than that, seems like the rest is up to schedulers.
I think we're getting a bit fatigued in the game (all levels of players) from the wildly unrealistic courses that appear realistic. This course looks amazing. But like many others suffers from the common tricks of making a course more difficult. Micro tier on long par 4's, 220+ yard par 3 with 10 feet of green or tucked to the back corner. Those can play, but when the pin is circled in red and yellow slope and a small miss results in putting over red slope it's just not fun. Tucked pin, fine. But give me at least a makeable putt from the middle of the green rather than the back corner also being on a plateau.
I get using that to throw a super difficult course at us once in awhile. I think this is more towards the designers. Schedulers dont have much choice when all the new courses use the same tricks. Just seems like, and especially with the competitions, designers are afraid to make a course too easy. They're producing amazing looking courses that get wildly unrealistic on the greens. "Unrealistic? You can hit a driver dead straight 300 yards every hole, that's unrealistic!" Indeed, it is. But I've also seen very few greens like these in real life.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Feb 10, 2020 15:36:01 GMT -5
62-63 and never been more delighted to miss a cut.
Thought i might make it but then bogied the 13th and went 3 yards right on the utterly ridiculous 16th and would up at the bottom of a cliff playing vertically through a bush Only hole worse than that one is No 7.
Every single niggling little thing that could exist on a course rolled into one.
- Lighting - Lag - Random OOB - Ridiculous run offs on the holes without the OOB so if you miss, it's physically impossible to get up and down, or in some cases, even get it on the green
- Enough elevation changes to give you vertigo if you didn't have it already - Massive hanging lies on every single approach
I'm sure the insta tempo/rent a flick brigade will destroy it, but if you're human and struggling with your swing - it's zero fun. Double punishing you for even the tiniest mistakes. And it still doesn't achieve what's it's supposed to - provide a challenge for the top guys, so what exactly is the point?
how should I provide a challenge? Your course is about as challenging as a course can be made in this game without veering into utter insanity. The top guys haver swings that are so reliable pretty much nothing will every really "challenge them"
No need to apologise btw. As a piece of design work it's very impressive. I just came away feeling like i hadn't got it THAT wrong and yet managed to put myself in some totally impossible spots and make three bogies and two doubles in 36 holes.
I've never gone in for these insane fantasy tracks, especially when there is a totally fine RCR available to us and think we see far too much of them up here. Really it's just personal preference.
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Post by Demonondalinks on Feb 10, 2020 15:39:16 GMT -5
62-63 and never been more delighted to miss a cut.
Thought i might make it but then bogied the 13th and went 3 yards right on the utterly ridiculous 16th and wound up at the bottom of a cliff playing vertically through a bush Only hole worse than that one is No 7.
Every single niggling little thing that could exist on a course rolled into one.
- Lighting - Lag - Random OOB - Ridiculous run offs on the holes without the OOB so if you miss, it's physically impossible to get up and down, or in some cases, even get it on the green
- Enough elevation changes to give you vertigo if you didn't have it already - Massive hanging lies on every single approach
I'm sure the insta tempo/rent a flick brigade will destroy it, but if you're human and struggling with your swing - it's zero fun. Double punishing you for even the tiniest mistakes. And it still doesn't achieve what's it's supposed to - provide a challenge for the top guys, so what exactly is the point?
This was Emailed to me a few months back after submitting a course. While a non approval can be based on any number of large issues, courses are usually marked as non-approved if there is a significant culmination of smaller ones, such as overly constricted landing areas, poor bunkering, EXTREME ELEVATION CHANGES, or unplayable, heavily sloping greens. Perhaps, since I have submitted that course back in November they have since changed their evaluation process.
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MikeB
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 255
TGCT Name: Mike Branca
Tour: Elite
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Post by MikeB on Feb 10, 2020 15:48:47 GMT -5
62-63 and never been more delighted to miss a cut.
Thought i might make it but then bogied the 13th and went 3 yards right on the utterly ridiculous 16th and would up at the bottom of a cliff playing vertically through a bush Only hole worse than that one is No 7.
Every single niggling little thing that could exist on a course rolled into one.
- Lighting - Lag - Random OOB - Ridiculous run offs on the holes without the OOB so if you miss, it's physically impossible to get up and down, or in some cases, even get it on the green
- Enough elevation changes to give you vertigo if you didn't have it already - Massive hanging lies on every single approach
I'm sure the insta tempo/rent a flick brigade will destroy it, but if you're human and struggling with your swing - it's zero fun. Double punishing you for even the tiniest mistakes. And it still doesn't achieve what's it's supposed to - provide a challenge for the top guys, so what exactly is the point?
Sorry you didn’t have a good time. I’ll try to work these things for three over the next three months on my next course. Yea that OB is TERRIBLE and I apologize. Would want to leave you with a question however (just to help myself with my next design), how should I provide a challenge? Sorry again. I like the course a lot. Looks fantastic. My idea is pins very difficult to put within 10 feet, but also having a "safe" area to at least hold the green and have a putt not having to go up 3 feet... Example, the long par 3 in I think rd 4. It's on the back 9. There is no way to hold the green if you go at the pin. There is no safe area to have a 40 foot putt. I had a putt yesterday that was about 40 feet away but I had to hit it 110 feet to reach the hole. Missing left put you down a fairway 20 feet below the green, and missing short put you on a wall. Running off, fine. Short and being on a wall, fine. I think the only option here is hope you hit close to the top of the rough so it stops the ball rolling out. That's more of a trick shot with no room for error. And that's the only option to even have a chance at birdie. Btw, I dont think your course in particular is getting people upset, I think it's that we've played so many wild courses since this game came out.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Feb 10, 2020 15:55:27 GMT -5
Sorry you didn’t have a good time. I’ll try to work these things for three over the next three months on my next course. Yea that OB is TERRIBLE and I apologize. Would want to leave you with a question however (just to help myself with my next design), how should I provide a challenge? Sorry again. Btw, I dont think your course in particular is getting people upset, I think it's that we've played so many wild courses since this game came out. My main beef is that we play too many course cut into cliffsides (If TGCT was a country we'd have run out of coastline 18 months ago) or with table top greens that reject anything but the perfect shot. So unless you're near to perfectly accurate, you're constantly flirting with disaster.
Like you say, the schedulers can only schedule what the designers design. And total fantasy (way beyond being simply fictional) seems to be on trend.
The first time i played this i just thought it was ludicrous. I then entered the thread and all i saw was plaudits for the design work. That's fine, and like you say, it looks great. But whether the course has any basis in reality whatsoever doesn't seem to be a metric that courses are ever judged by...
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Post by TannerBronson on Feb 10, 2020 16:04:19 GMT -5
Sorry you didn’t have a good time. I’ll try to work these things for three over the next three months on my next course. Yea that OB is TERRIBLE and I apologize. Would want to leave you with a question however (just to help myself with my next design), how should I provide a challenge? Sorry again. I like the course a lot. Looks fantastic. My idea is pins very difficult to put within 10 feet, but also having a "safe" area to at least hold the green and have a putt not having to go up 3 feet... Example, the long par 3 in I think rd 4. It's on the back 9. There is no way to hold the green if you go at the pin. There is no safe area to have a 40 foot putt. I had a putt yesterday that was about 40 feet away but I had to hit it 110 feet to reach the hole. Missing left put you down a fairway 20 feet below the green, and missing short put you on a wall. Running off, fine. Short and being on a wall, fine. I think the only option here is hope you hit close to the top of the rough so it stops the ball rolling out. That's more of a trick shot with no room for error. And that's the only option to even have a chance at birdie. Btw, I dont think your course in particular is getting people upset, I think it's that we've played so many wild courses since this game came out. I totally take the blame for 17. Greatly misjudged.
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