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Post by LKeet6 on Jan 23, 2020 6:51:43 GMT -5
Based off seeing b101's excellent parkland course, where he specifically set out as his aim to create a realistic course that didn't rely on the "crutch" (his word) of the more exaggerated/fantasy elements of the visuals.
I think this would make a really cool design contest, challenging the most talented designers in this community whilst, at the same time, almost giving them "a break" from having to go all out with the usual eye candy that needs to go into these courses.
I'm aware, obviously, that many/most of the super eye candy heavy courses are ALSO realistic, in terms of having good hole layouts and strategy, but I still think this contest would be quite a removal from what normally comes out.
I'm also seeing a lot of people complaining about courses used on tour being tricked and with forced difficulty. I think a lot of the courses coming out of a contest like this could be more enjoyable tour courses for many. They would probably be low scoring courses, but would feel like a fair and enjoyable challenge.
I'm also aware that this would be fairly similar to the major course design contest, but would not have the constraints of being only suitable for a major, and I did still feel with some of those course (NOT a criticism!) They were still bordering towards fantasy, in places! I'm very picky on what makes "realistic," I admit!
So like judging would be maybe 50% (or more) on how realistic the course is, and then judging on hole layouts, strategy and then, what would probably mark out the elite of the contest, STILL creating memorable and beautiful holes whilst staying within the realistic/minimalist overall aim.
Just an idea! Maybe the interest won't be there. But somehow I imagine quite a few of the best designers really liking the idea of this.
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Post by sandsaver01 on Jan 23, 2020 7:50:19 GMT -5
Based off seeing b101's excellent parkland course, where he specifically set out as his aim to create a realistic course that didn't rely on the "crutch" (his word) of the more exaggerated/fantasy elements of the visuals. I think this would make a really cool design contest, challenging the most talented designers in this community whilst, at the same time, almost giving them "a break" from having to go all out with the usual eye candy that needs to go into these courses. I'm aware, obviously, that many/most of the super eye candy heavy courses are ALSO realistic, in terms of having good hole layouts and strategy, but I still think this contest would be quite a removal from what normally comes out. I'm also seeing a lot of people complaining about courses used on tour being tricked and with forced difficulty. I think a lot of the courses coming out of a contest like this could be more enjoyable tour courses for many. They would probably be low scoring courses, but would feel like a fair and enjoyable challenge. I'm also aware that this would be fairly similar to the major course design contest, but would not have the constraints of being only suitable for a major, and I did still feel with some of those course (NOT a criticism!) They were still bordering towards fantasy, in places! I'm very picky on what makes "realistic," I admit! So like judging would be maybe 50% (or more) on how realistic the course is, and then judging on hole layouts, strategy and then, what would probably mark out the elite of the contest, STILL creating memorable and beautiful holes whilst staying within the realistic/minimalist overall aim. Just an idea! Maybe the interest won't be there. But somehow I imagine quite a few of the best designers really liking the idea of this. are you envisioning allowing (not limiting to) Lidar courses in this contest? |
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Post by LKeet6 on Jan 23, 2020 7:53:18 GMT -5
Based off seeing b101's excellent parkland course, where he specifically set out as his aim to create a realistic course that didn't rely on the "crutch" (his word) of the more exaggerated/fantasy elements of the visuals. I think this would make a really cool design contest, challenging the most talented designers in this community whilst, at the same time, almost giving them "a break" from having to go all out with the usual eye candy that needs to go into these courses. I'm aware, obviously, that many/most of the super eye candy heavy courses are ALSO realistic, in terms of having good hole layouts and strategy, but I still think this contest would be quite a removal from what normally comes out. I'm also seeing a lot of people complaining about courses used on tour being tricked and with forced difficulty. I think a lot of the courses coming out of a contest like this could be more enjoyable tour courses for many. They would probably be low scoring courses, but would feel like a fair and enjoyable challenge. I'm also aware that this would be fairly similar to the major course design contest, but would not have the constraints of being only suitable for a major, and I did still feel with some of those course (NOT a criticism!) They were still bordering towards fantasy, in places! I'm very picky on what makes "realistic," I admit! So like judging would be maybe 50% (or more) on how realistic the course is, and then judging on hole layouts, strategy and then, what would probably mark out the elite of the contest, STILL creating memorable and beautiful holes whilst staying within the realistic/minimalist overall aim. Just an idea! Maybe the interest won't be there. But somehow I imagine quite a few of the best designers really liking the idea of this. are you envisioning allowing (not limiting to) Lidar courses in this contest? My idea was that it would be fictional courses. So not recreating courses, but being challenged to invent realistic courses themselves and not getting carried away with the elevation, water, planting, rocks, waterfalls, eye candy, BUT still making them very attractive. An RCR and lidar competition I think is another great idea, that I'm not sure has happened? |
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Post by sandsaver01 on Jan 23, 2020 9:41:42 GMT -5
My idea was that it would be fictional courses. So not recreating courses, but being challenged to invent realistic courses themselves and not getting carried away with the elevation, water, planting, rocks, waterfalls, eye candy, BUT still making them very attractive. An RCR and lidar competition I think is another great idea, that I'm not sure has happened? I do not know if there is already such a competition Leon, but would be interested. As for your original idea, I would say that IMHO that a good percentage of the courses designed for contests are RCR-like (meaning non-fantasy but not existing IRL). You would have to carefully define what is your definition of tricked up or overdone in order to be fair. |
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Post by mjhamilton113 on Jan 23, 2020 10:12:00 GMT -5
I do really like this concept and I have been looking to finally enter an official competition.
To piggy back on the Lidar idea, I would love to see a contest that allows someone to either use Lidar or fictional course, set in a Real World place. A good example of this was all of the people that have recreated Central Park in NYC and designed a course in the confines. Or it would be cool for someone to take a real coastal plot and trying to match the course to the vegetation and surrounding areas. As a part of the contest, you would have to show some real pictures or Google images of the area and try to match those surroundings as closely as possible while fitting a course in there.
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Post by lessthanbread on Jan 23, 2020 10:15:38 GMT -5
I like anything new/different from the norm. I am all for eye candy, dressing courses up to the max and flirting between fictional-realistic and pure fantasy but this would be a cool spin on things to really let the course and sculpting do the talking. It would be tough, however, to put in parameters that would work for a contest. It sounds like it would kind of be a subjective call for how "realistic" a course is because there are crazy courses in real life that, if represented in the designer, might look fantasy. Like this one:  I could see it working better if you called it a parkland course design contest as that might be easier to define. I found this short description online: "Parkland golf courses are characterized by lush, well-kept fairways, mature trees, thick rough and bunkers. They are typically located well inland" |
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Post by mjhamilton113 on Jan 23, 2020 10:19:38 GMT -5
How can we go about starting a contest? I know the WCOD is ending soon, but could we start one now that goes until say April or something? I am open to any kind of ideas at this point
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Post by LKeet6 on Jan 23, 2020 10:28:50 GMT -5
I agree, now that I think about, that defining parameters would be tough. I wouldn't want to restrict it just "parkland," but also accept leaving it open would lead to misunderstanding and people feeling unfairly treated. Completely agree that there are many courses that are dramatic and feature quite extreme geological elements; it's usually only restricted to 1-4 holes though? And I feel like (obviously) they fit very naturally into their surroundings. This is hard to replicate in the designer. So contestants would have the choice to either leave that out, or go for broke and if it works their course would be a top contender. I would be tempted to say something like limit the number of holes where retaining walls and rocks are used. And banning waterfalls! (Lol, sorry!) Also discouraging (but not banning) too much elevation change. It would definitely be very subjective, because what I'm actually aiming for IS using striking holes and visuals WITHIN a more "realistic" setting. But all the other contests involved a lot of subjectivity? Glad to see people at least think it's an interesting concept  |
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Post by lessthanbread on Jan 23, 2020 10:29:00 GMT -5
How can we go about starting a contest? I know the WCOD is ending soon, but could we start one now that goes until say April or something? I am open to any kind of ideas at this point Anyone can host their own contests apart from the TGC Tours official ones at any time. You just need to get enough buy-in obviously to make it happen. An example of a successful unofficial design contest was the Mini Golf Design Contest that was held this past summer: tgctours.proboards.com/thread/19935/mini-golf-design-contestI think a big reason for its success was that it was started by a very well known and respected member of TGC Tours so they were able to get a lot of buy-in right away. I would suggest anyone who isn't one of the big guns around here to reach out to one of them with your contest idea and see if they'll be a sort of sponsor for you. |
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Post by LKeet6 on Jan 23, 2020 10:32:53 GMT -5
How can we go about starting a contest? I know the WCOD is ending soon, but could we start one now that goes until say April or something? I am open to any kind of ideas at this point Anyone can host their own contests apart from the TGC Tours official ones at any time. You just need to get enough buy-in obviously to make it happen. An example of a successful unofficial design contest was the Mini Golf Design Contest that was held this past summer: tgctours.proboards.com/thread/19935/mini-golf-design-contestI think a big reason for its success was that it was started by a very well known and respected member of TGC Tours so they were able to get a lot of buy-in right away. I would suggest anyone who isn't one of the big guns around here to reach out to one of them with your contest idea and see if they'll be a sort of sponsor for you. Yes, I wasn't really declaring an interest in running it  Was hoping one of the top designers and forum guys would latch on to my idea. I had Eric in mind, but any of those guys would be awesome. |
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Post by tpetro on Jan 23, 2020 10:37:24 GMT -5
How can we go about starting a contest? I know the WCOD is ending soon, but could we start one now that goes until say April or something? I am open to any kind of ideas at this point Anyone can host their own contests apart from the TGC Tours official ones at any time. You just need to get enough buy-in obviously to make it happen. An example of a successful unofficial design contest was the Mini Golf Design Contest that was held this past summer: tgctours.proboards.com/thread/19935/mini-golf-design-contestI think a big reason for its success was that it was started by a very well known and respected member of TGC Tours so they were able to get a lot of buy-in right away. I would suggest anyone who isn't one of the big guns around here to reach out to one of them with your contest idea and see if they'll be a sort of sponsor for you. Another reason why the Mini Golf Contest worked is that it didn't interfere too much with other contests. Summer is a perfect window. You can't really start a contest now and generate sufficient interest because 2 contests start next Saturday. |
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Post by mjhamilton113 on Jan 23, 2020 11:46:22 GMT -5
What contests start next Saturday? Are there links to those and a chance to enter?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 12:24:56 GMT -5
It sounds more to me like you're defining 'realistic' as 'simple.' There are lots of real life courses with crazy terrain and golf holes: should we label almost all of Crystal Downs and holes 15-17 at Cabot Cliffs as 'fantasy?' Furthermore, there's no way in hell a 'parklands' course could fit naturally on some plots of land, and just imagine how much worse the Shinnecock / Sebonack / NGLA trio would be if they dumbed down the strategic elements and tried to change the environment to make them more 'parklandsey.'
If anything, a parameter for such a contest would be that a course play very well for hardcore, pure sim style gameplay. The biggest difference here would probably just be in the green complexes. The added distance uncertainty playing this way makes macro-angles matter a lot more than they typically do. For 'normal' play where people can land the ball in a 3x3 circle on a consistent basis, the green contouring and angling needs to be more severe. This is so that the thinking player is to have an advantage and find the best ways to attack specific pins and the best locations to do so from, whereas someone who just plays 'grip and rip' golf will miss out on a few birdie chances as a result of being out of position.
As long as you're not routinely on PGA (and even if you are), there are so many instances where people give themselves harder approach shots just because they don't take the time to see where the pin is before teeing off and plot backwards to figure out the easiest place to get at it.
Honestly, I think a lot of this could be done if people wanted to make two versions of a course with different green complexes: one for regular play and one more sim-oriented. The hard part with that is a lot of golf holes are very green-centric (as they should be), so building the same holes with a different set of 18 similar quality greens which suit that course equally well...easier said than done, but it might be an interesting idea worth fooling around with.
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Post by LKeet6 on Jan 23, 2020 17:00:26 GMT -5
It sounds more to me like you're defining 'realistic' as 'simple.' There are lots of real life courses with crazy terrain and golf holes: should we label almost all of Crystal Downs and holes 15-17 at Cabot Cliffs as 'fantasy?' Furthermore, there's no way in hell a 'parklands' course could fit naturally on some plots of land, and just imagine how much worse the Shinnecock / Sebonack / NGLA trio would be if they dumbed down the strategic elements and tried to change the environment to make them more 'parklandsey.' If anything, a parameter for such a contest would be that a course play very well for hardcore, pure sim style gameplay. The biggest difference here would probably just be in the green complexes. The added distance uncertainty playing this way makes macro-angles matter a lot more than they typically do. For 'normal' play where people can land the ball in a 3x3 circle on a consistent basis, the green contouring and angling needs to be more severe. This is so that the thinking player is to have an advantage and find the best ways to attack specific pins and the best locations to do so from, whereas someone who just plays 'grip and rip' golf will miss out on a few birdie chances as a result of being out of position. As long as you're not routinely on PGA (and even if you are), there are so many instances where people give themselves harder approach shots just because they don't take the time to see where the pin is before teeing off and plot backwards to figure out the easiest place to get at it. Honestly, I think a lot of this could be done if people wanted to make two versions of a course with different green complexes: one for regular play and one more sim-oriented. The hard part with that is a lot of golf holes are very green-centric (as they should be), so building the same holes with a different set of 18 similar quality greens which suit that course equally well...easier said than done, but it might be an interesting idea worth fooling around with. Feel like I've already addressed a lot of these questions/issues. But if you don't like the idea, that's cool. (Didn't say it had to be parkland, didn't say it couldn't have some "wow" factor in it...) |
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Post by mjhamilton113 on Jan 23, 2020 17:11:15 GMT -5
I like the idea and would be interested in setting some type of parameters
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