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Post by mcbogga on Feb 23, 2015 11:42:29 GMT -5
Played Liberty Sound in 8-13 winds. Very fair and quite accommodating greens if you have a look at where to place the ball. That is one thing that I love about this type of greens - you actually have to think about where to place the ball not to get a monster breaker, just like on championship courses in real life. Looks like many just fire at the flag with little thought and expect the course not to bite back. This type of green design together with wind meter off would instantly add score variance as well as add maybe 3-4 shots on average to all scores.
Really good course, but still easy compared to what I am looking for, and the top players would massacre it even in high winds.
Anyone who considers Liberty Sound a difficult course gets Legacy at Cape Point as homework. In my opinion probably the best fair test of golf the game has to offer to date and one of the most beautiful courses as well. Still the best score on PS4 is a -9 and breaking par is not automatic on this one.
Funny how all the more championship style courses tend to be links theme...
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xusemagru
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 115 
TGCT Name: Ryan O'Donnell
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Post by xusemagru on Feb 23, 2015 12:20:36 GMT -5
There is a lot of cookie cutter courses being put out now and I agree with the original opinion of this thread. By cookie cutter i am referring to firmness and green speeds. For the longest any course that bucked the trend of medium medium or having red in the greens or edges of greens/fairways being flattened out got lower reviews than courses that did those things. Most of these courses that are on the tours I have played and they are all similar. I fire at every pin without worry of a ball rolling back into a bunker or being left with a long putt.
This issue has been around for a long long time with this game. Harder courses that require thinking generally do not get as good of marks/reviews as courses that are easier.
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Post by bruce on Feb 23, 2015 12:24:59 GMT -5
Now as far as greens go, at least in real life, they are generally flat. Now by that I mean there not actually flat, but they don't have huge up and down breaks. Its all about subtleties. But then thats real greens, where you can see small breaks. Now on sim greens everything needs to be ramped up, so its easier to see for one and you can't really "see" breaks at all anyway.
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Post by theclv24 on Feb 23, 2015 12:41:37 GMT -5
I haven't gotten a chance to play the Prototype Links yet, but hoping to soon. However, my stance on course difficulty and preventing low scores has been changing a bit as I have been looking for strategic holes to add to my post over at HB. I think with all aids on, it is not possible to keep scores reasonable without making the experience of playing the course entirely unpleasant. The only way that we will see PGA-like scores is with aids off. That's an entirely different discussion, but I think that is where we stand.
I'm starting to think that the discussion should switch from "how to make courses hard" to "how to make courses interesting". I think it's a better experience for everyone if the top players are shooting -12 on a course that is interesting and thought-provoking, rather than the top players are shooting -15 on a great-looking but easy course, or -9 on a brutal course that no one enjoys playing.
As a Tour player in the Top 50, but with no chance at sniffing the Top 10, I have a certain preference when playing a course. I know I can't dial shots in the way the top players do, whether it be because of my swing path, my lack of math skills, or my unwillingness to spend more than a few seconds doing math on a shot, I just know it is not going to happen. I want to be able to think my way around the course, though, and make smarter decisions than the player whose only goal off the tee is distance, and only path to the green is directly at the flag. I've played a course recently designed for difficulty, and I felt there was nothing I could do better strategically to improve my score. My only path to improving my score was dialing in my approach shots better.
Therefore, I want 18 holes that give me a chance to hang with the best players, by enticing them to go into auto-pilot and make bad decisions, while I plan my route from tee to green strategically. This probably means that I shoot -10 and the best players shoot -12, but so be it. I can't provide the exact formula to accomplish this, but I think inspiration can be drawn from some of the holes on my list over at HB.
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Post by joegolferg on Feb 23, 2015 13:24:08 GMT -5
Well said McBogga! I completely agree with you. Although most tour course look great, they play way too easily and IMO don't represent true championship courses. We need tougher tracks that actually resemble the Euro and PGA tour courses, aesthetics are nice and crucial to a good course but difficulty/playability are key for tour courses. Having severe mounds and slopes on green's are deemed unfair and unrealistic by some people and this is untrue. Get out there and play some of these type's of courses irl and you will see for yourself that courses do have these features.
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xusemagru
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 115
TGCT Name: Ryan O'Donnell
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Post by xusemagru on Feb 23, 2015 13:49:14 GMT -5
I haven't gotten a chance to play the Prototype Links yet, but hoping to soon. However, my stance on course difficulty and preventing low scores has been changing a bit as I have been looking for strategic holes to add to my post over at HB. I think with all aids on, it is not possible to keep scores reasonable without making the experience of playing the course entirely unpleasant. The only way that we will see PGA-like scores is with aids off. That's an entirely different discussion, but I think that is where we stand. I'm starting to think that the discussion should switch from "how to make courses hard" to "how to make courses interesting". I think it's a better experience for everyone if the top players are shooting -12 on a course that is interesting and thought-provoking, rather than the top players are shooting -15 on a great-looking but easy course, or -9 on a brutal course that no one enjoys playing. I removed the rest of your post to save space. Clv you are one of my favorite designers in this game and have been for quite some time. I disagree with the bolded though. I think that it is possible to make scores reasonable through a more difficult course design. A lot of the players term pleasant versus unpleasant with if they can score low on a given course. If they cannot score low or the course is "too tough" then they just deem it unpleasant and don't play it. Having greens with slopes on them, two tiers, three tiers and run offs in certain directions are all fair in real golf and should be on this game. Unfortunately, people think these designs aren't real, unfair, design flaws and generally unpleasant when that should not be the case. Things also need to be taken into consideration when creating these courses, with the firmer/faster settings, when building greens and pin placement that make these courses pleasant or unpleasant. A good shot should be rewarded, don't have a front pin position on a fast green when hitting a long iron/wood. While this would be fair in the real world, due to the limitations of the game though these aren't exactly fair options in this game. I think the good designers know these things already though. Problem will always be though that people will prefer to play the easier courses that they can shoot Tiger woods stock on then a more difficult course that will make them think about shot placement. |
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Post by BMann1976 on Feb 23, 2015 13:53:47 GMT -5
The Challenge Club is a good test of golf. It's over 7800 yards but fair, yet tough. Need more of these types of courses.
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Post by theclv24 on Feb 23, 2015 14:17:50 GMT -5
I removed the rest of your post to save space. Clv you are one of my favorite designers in this game and have been for quite some time. I disagree with the bolded though. I think that it is possible to make scores reasonable through a more difficult course design. A lot of the players term pleasant versus unpleasant with if they can score low on a given course. If they cannot score low or the course is "too tough" then they just deem it unpleasant and don't play it. Having greens with slopes on them, two tiers, three tiers and run offs in certain directions are all fair in real golf and should be on this game. Unfortunately, people think these designs aren't real, unfair, design flaws and generally unpleasant when that should not be the case. Things also need to be taken into consideration when creating these courses, with the firmer/faster settings, when building greens and pin placement that make these courses pleasant or unpleasant. A good shot should be rewarded, don't have a front pin position on a fast green when hitting a long iron/wood. While this would be fair in the real world, due to the limitations of the game though these aren't exactly fair options in this game. I think the good designers know these things already though. Problem will always be though that people will prefer to play the easier courses that they can shoot Tiger woods stock on then a more difficult course that will make them think about shot placement. Well my prime example of what I was talking about is Copper Creek. I think there are about 5 people who like that course, and most people straight hated it. Despite my very explicit descriptions of the course and how I designed it (you have to play for the center of the green), most people refused to play that way and wanted to shoot for the pin and paid the price, saying that the greens were too small and fast. While I believe that the problem is more with their expectations than the course itself, the course record for the major version was still -13, I believe. So even when creating a difficult course that most people did not find enjoyable, the low scores remained pretty much the same. My thought is that I would rather create a course that has a -13 course record but was at least somewhat more enjoyable for the average player. |
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xusemagru
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 115
TGCT Name: Ryan O'Donnell
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Post by xusemagru on Feb 23, 2015 14:26:44 GMT -5
I removed the rest of your post to save space. Clv you are one of my favorite designers in this game and have been for quite some time. I disagree with the bolded though. I think that it is possible to make scores reasonable through a more difficult course design. A lot of the players term pleasant versus unpleasant with if they can score low on a given course. If they cannot score low or the course is "too tough" then they just deem it unpleasant and don't play it. Having greens with slopes on them, two tiers, three tiers and run offs in certain directions are all fair in real golf and should be on this game. Unfortunately, people think these designs aren't real, unfair, design flaws and generally unpleasant when that should not be the case. Things also need to be taken into consideration when creating these courses, with the firmer/faster settings, when building greens and pin placement that make these courses pleasant or unpleasant. A good shot should be rewarded, don't have a front pin position on a fast green when hitting a long iron/wood. While this would be fair in the real world, due to the limitations of the game though these aren't exactly fair options in this game. I think the good designers know these things already though. Problem will always be though that people will prefer to play the easier courses that they can shoot Tiger woods stock on then a more difficult course that will make them think about shot placement. Well my prime example of what I was talking about is Copper Creek. I think there are about 5 people who like that course, and most people straight hated it. Despite my very explicit descriptions of the course and how I designed it (you have to play for the center of the green), most people refused to play that way and wanted to shoot for the pin and paid the price, saying that the greens were too small and fast. While I believe that the problem is more with their expectations than the course itself, the course record for the major version was still -13, I believe. So even when creating a difficult course that most people did not find enjoyable, the low scores remained pretty much the same. My thought is that I would rather create a course that has a -13 course record but was at least somewhat more enjoyable for the average player. That makes sense. I also think the course record wasn't realized until someone waited out low winds. I will try out Copper Creek. I am all to familiar with complaints about courses being unfair or greens being bad and not being able to shoot at a pin. The two courses I created way way way back when were not exactly fan favorites for the same reasons. -13 is a good low score though Id be happy with that. It beats -17. I never wanted my courses to be able to shoot tiger stock on. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 14:35:25 GMT -5
I remember two of the complaints about my Jebel Ali course was that none of the par 5s were reachable in two and people keep driving through some of the fairways when they had a tailwind. Nauseating.
And I must add that there was not a single round under 60. Only course on the two major Tours to achieve that.
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Post by joegolferg on Feb 23, 2015 14:43:34 GMT -5
I remember two of the complaints about my Jebel Ali course was that none of the par 5s were reachable in two and people keep driving through some of the fairways when they had a tailwind. Nauseating. And I must add that there was not a single round under 60. Only course on the two major Tours to achieve that. LOL I hate it when people moan about unreachable par 5's. |
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xusemagru
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 115
TGCT Name: Ryan O'Donnell
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Post by xusemagru on Feb 23, 2015 14:47:21 GMT -5
I remember two of the complaints about my Jebel Ali course was that none of the par 5s were reachable in two and people keep driving through some of the fairways when they had a tailwind. Nauseating. And I must add that there was not a single round under 60. Only course on the two major Tours to achieve that. LOL I hate it when people moan about unreachable par 5's. I agree and disagree lol I love being able to reach in 2 i think most should be set to be able to reach in 2 even if the only way to reach it is a head wind of 20 lol I just want the rare ability to reach |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 15:17:10 GMT -5
LOL I hate it when people moan about unreachable par 5's. I agree and disagree lol I love being able to reach in 2 i think most should be set to be able to reach in 2 even if the only way to reach it is a head wind of 20 lol I just want the rare ability to reach I can understand that. Every course needs at least 1 par 5 that can be reached in 2. However, I think there needs to be a risk within the equation. Either the player takes a risk with his drive off the tee or the eagle putt is borderline unbearable unless the 2nd shot is played with perfection in the correct conditions. |
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Post by joegolferg on Feb 23, 2015 15:58:15 GMT -5
Yeah that's what i do with my courses, I always include at least one reachable par 5.
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Post by nevadaballin on Feb 25, 2015 18:33:35 GMT -5
Yeah, there is a bit of "Silver Platter" syndrome going around. Too much emphasis on lighting and planting than core golf. I have to agree. When "can you mow that?" becomes part of the considerations for a tour course, then it's gotten away from core golf. Routing, bunker placement (not picasso bunker designs), firmness and green speed fitting layout, etc should always be ahead of aesthetics. And by the way, yes they can mow anything. I took this pic the other day at a local course where I was hitting a bucket.  ![]()  If the local muni course can mow those hills - and they do obviously - then the ability of a landscaper to mow anything in the year 2015 should never come into question. |
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