The courses we play - "Resortification"

[mcbogga]

Steve2Golf put this idea in my mind in another thread and the more I think about it the more I feel he is right about course difficulty.

I believe the designs that have come out lately, especially those that get high grades - are in effect resort courses. Great vistas, some holes that look challenging, beautiful planting - but at further examination they are made to yield good scores for the average golfer. There are also some "rules" like "show the fairway", "no severe slopes on greens", "an approach that hits the green should hold" etc.that are being touted as requirements.They are simply not true for championship type courses.

I have had the luck to be able to play some more modern championship designs in China from designers like Nicklaus (not a fan, but they do know how to make a challenging course) and Trent Jones. These courses were built primarily to host championship golf (WGC etc.), not to play nice to high handicap green fee guests. Already from the back tees they are not only breaking the above rules on many holes, they are actively trying to be mean and get the golfer in trouble. Some of the championship tees are just silly. Some things that I have seen a lot on these courses:

- Blind tee shots with forced carries (usually a tree or other sight mark is only orientation)
- Blind or semi blind approaches
- Mounds or hollows in run up to green
- "Red" and "yellow" slopes on greens, a lot
- Water cutting off landing areas, pinching driver landing zone severely even on long par 4s.
- Some greens that reject pretty much anything that is not hitting a 3x3 yds landing spot from the right angle. Ball is sent into bunkers, water, or devilish collection areas.
- If a par 5 is reachable - there is usually no run up and it is fiercely guarded by bunkers, water and slopes. The green complex is built to defend against the short pitch, not invite the second shot. 

These are courses on which the pros need -15-20 to win over four days, and those guys make it seem easy. Extremely impressive to watch. I cant help but wonder what results would be having courses that demanded the same on TGCT   

The last courses I have played in game that gave me anything near the same feeling are Copper Creek (Major) and Kodiak. Hidden Links comes to mind as well, even if it plays a tad on the easy side and way easier than it looks. Jebel Ali also hit some of the boxes.

For some reason we have had a "resortification" of the designs we play and this needs to stop... Even "the Challenge club" is affected by this and plays IMHO like a very long resort course. Have to go back in time to find some more championship-like courses. TheCLV comes to mind as a designer that creates more tournament style courses, while Biggins is an example of a resort course designer. Love Biggins' designs and his skill with the GNCD, but they are just not designed as tour courses which I think he would agree to. Nothing wrong with that at all, but this is TGC Tours.

Some "new rules" I can propose for championship design:

- Slope on greens is a good thing. The larger the green and shorter the hole, the more slope. Area around pin does not need to be flat - just of uniform green slope. Yellow and red slopes should be a common sight. On a 9I or less approach there is nothing wrong demanding the player to hit a 2x2yds area in order to have a makeable putt. 
- No need to be nice to an approach coming in from the wrong angle. Send it off into bunkers or worse if it is the slightest bit off since player had no business hitting the drive where they did. 
- Deception. Hide hazards, make "the wrong shot" look inviting. Use partial blind shots to steer the player the wrong direction
- Tapered fairways. Pinch that landing zone for Driver. If the player wants a shorter approach, make them take a risk. Or make them trade distance for slope. Nothing wrong pinching with water.
- Reward good strategy coupled with perfect execution, punish harshly shots where either one is missing. 
- There is nothing saying that the player should have a way to get to every pin. Sometimes a 20 foot breaking putt should be the best result available unless the player pulls off a miracle shot.
- Keep in mind that the HB golfer is more consistent than even the best pros, so even tighter fairways and pin placements than what is used on the real tours should be no problem. 
- Deep bunkers, heavy rough and water are good defenses that provide consequences - semi rough and flat bunkers are not. 
- Bail out zones are fine, but not needed on every hole. The longer the approach, the more sense they make. Bailout zones on the green should leave a challenging putt.
- Even if the fairway is wide - require the ball to be in the right spot on that fairway
- Holes that require shot shaping on either tee shot or approach are great. These can be made much more subtle that sticking trees in the way as well. 

Put together a 9-holer called "Prototype links 0.5" that uses some of the concepts above. Very unrefined course, and greens are still too easy maybe, but I hope it can showcase some concepts that can be utilized to defend par. 

I hope we can get some more really good designers that want to make true championship courses for this game.

Comments?

[Deleted]

I wouldn't mind this for majors. Better than turning aids off imo.

But all you have to do is look at the Web.com board to see the reaction to the last course we played. people just don't like playing those courses. however like I said I think its a good idea for majors.

[Pubknight]

Not going to disagree with the OP.
Part of that though is you have to design a course without a prevailing wind, where wind can vary from 0-20+, and from any direction.
So trying to design for every possible wind condition, from every possible direction, is tough.

But, putting isn't affected by wind.
And the greens in general are far too flat.

As a grid is a square yard, and the hole to the first grid line (either side) is a foot and a half, think about the number of putts where you have to play more than a foot and a half of break in a typical round.
Maybe one?
And that's if you messed up and left yourself a 30'er.
That's just not enough.
So if you can't do anything about the length of the putts people have, you have to accept they are putting for birdie from less than 15' typically.
And you have to make them earn it.

More slopes, faster greens.

The Euro tour this week is using a 4 pin rotation.
That's great.
The courses with the four pins that we are using in competition have slower greens than the 'regular' course.
What?

[crow357]

Links at Liberty Sound should work for you. High winds, lots of red, 2x2 landing areas. Very tough.

[Deleted]

Yeah, there is a bit of "Silver Platter" syndrome going around. Too much emphasis on lighting and planting than core golf.

[mcbogga]

Have not played that one yet, but will give it a look for sure. Like the look of that Web.com leaderboard... Seems pins are still a bit accessible or tee shots too easy if it gives up scores in the -40s. But any course in game is pretty much defenseless in no wind.

I know there are courses like this out there - but they are few and far in between. Also seems that most of these are "older" designs. The current design trend in my opininon is going the wrong way.

Difficult courses are very difficult to design as there is a very fine line between difficult and unfair. Not having prevailing wind, as mentioned, does not help. Also they will always be critizied.

[rod81simo]

Played your prototype Robert. IMHO I think if it were not for the rock hard conditions and lightning quick greens I feel even this would still bring some low scores. I like the fact you never used out and out length to make it unfair. I like 8&9 in theory but your mind is made up for you depending on the pin position really. The rest of holes all played the same. The par 5 was hard to tell apart in the play thru might have to retry down the track. The bunkers out of sight in the fairways are a bit unfair IMO and would not lend itself to some of the aids being turned off and playing. The moguls in the fairway are odd to. If your aim is for uneven lies then consistent sloping ground or less severe undulations would work better and seem more natural and less gimmicky as your still after a tour worthy course. I feel the green work was great and really put a premium on placement like you want and played really well. If go with Steve's thinking that it's one or the other. Soft and fast or hard and slow as both is just to much. I like your reasoning and feel you are onto something but even still it is really hard to pull off and feel that course difficulty is still out of our hands. Honestly need a set wind direction and speed or a range thereof and also the green structures which you have a good understanding of. As far as reasoning and applying different ways to attack a home or shot the fairways seen not conducive to your thoughts. The first few far to wide and I actually hit poor shots and was fine and on fairway. The par 5 was good in that area and 8&9 not so much at all as pretty straight forward to find the short stuff. Loved the par 3 hole. It played great. Was tough in the wind and I found the swail on the left. My only dropped shot and birdied the last with a great approach. Cheers and hopefully you'll take the communities suggestions on board and not be so steadfast in your reasoning which I'm sure you won't be. Having testing conditions whilst a challenge and enjoyable for some is not for most and I still feel you can make the courses look good. That's straight forward and goes along with course design not what course design is all about. Keep going and I'll play your follow up prototypes.

[misternic]

Give Gregors Firth v2 a play. it had the same complaints you noted... it needs some more polish, but green swells and a tough links challenge.

[rod81simo]

Feb 22, 2015 23:39:04 GMT -5 misternic said:

Give Gregors Firth v2 a play. it had the same complaints you noted... it needs some more polish, but green swells and a tough links challenge.

i keep hearing about that track at un-opportune times. I'll have a round now

[rod81simo]

Feb 22, 2015 23:49:00 GMT -5 rod81simo said:

Feb 22, 2015 23:39:04 GMT -5 misternic said:

Give Gregors Firth v2 a play. it had the same complaints you noted... it needs some more polish, but green swells and a tough links challenge.

i keep hearing about that track at un-opportune times. I'll have a round now

3 birdies and 3 bogeys. Even par round. Happy with that and I had good winds at only 2-8mph. Still way to firm...... When an 8i can have a rollout of up to 20yds most balls ended up where they wanted to IMO. Lol. Still a fun round that had me thinking. Good designed course. Loved the designers take on the road hole and the last and St Andrews. Well done there.

[Deleted]

Everyone can create courses, feel free to make one or more. Sure beats the tar outa suggesting methods for others to use.

[mcbogga]

Taste - See where you are coming from, but this is more to provide a contrary view to the current trend in design for the game and selection for the tours. Stir the pot, if you will. Your designs have never been conformist anyway, so you can safely ignore this. Also I did put out the 9-holer together with the post as it is only fair to leave myself open to criticism after this type of post. You are free to comment on that. Love Redwood by the way, awesome course!

Nic - had a feeling the Firth might pop up here. It is really brutal - in a good way. Did a search for it on the forum and noticed that you have once referred to it as "relaxing". That is a very liberal use of that word...

[mcbogga]

Feb 22, 2015 23:27:16 GMT -5 rod81simo said:

Played your prototype Robert. IMHO I think if it were not for the rock hard conditions and lightning quick greens I feel even this would still bring some low scores. I like the fact you never used out and out length to make it unfair. I like 8&9 in theory but your mind is made up for you depending on the pin position really. The rest of holes all played the same. The par 5 was hard to tell apart in the play thru might have to retry down the track. The bunkers out of sight in the fairways are a bit unfair IMO and would not lend itself to some of the aids being turned off and playing. The moguls in the fairway are odd to. If your aim is for uneven lies then consistent sloping ground or less severe undulations would work better and seem more natural and less gimmicky as your still after a tour worthy course. I feel the green work was great and really put a premium on placement like you want and played really well. If go with Steve's thinking that it's one or the other. Soft and fast or hard and slow as both is just to much. I like your reasoning and feel you are onto something but even still it is really hard to pull off and feel that course difficulty is still out of our hands. Honestly need a set wind direction and speed or a range thereof and also the green structures which you have a good understanding of. As far as reasoning and applying different ways to attack a home or shot the fairways seen not conducive to your thoughts. The first few far to wide and I actually hit poor shots and was fine and on fairway. The par 5 was good in that area and 8&9 not so much at all as pretty straight forward to find the short stuff. Loved the par 3 hole. It played great. Was tough in the wind and I found the swail on the left. My only dropped shot and birdied the last with a great approach. Cheers and hopefully you'll take the communities suggestions on board and not be so steadfast in your reasoning which I'm sure you won't be. Having testing conditions whilst a challenge and enjoyable for some is not for most and I still feel you can make the courses look good. That's straight forward and goes along with course design not what course design is all about. Keep going and I'll play your follow up prototypes.

Rod - Thanks for the play and feedback! But - steadfast is my middle name... :-)



The course is really a prototype course to try/show some design concepts for difficulty - not intended for release as a "real" course. Most effects are overdone. The firm/fast just gives the ability to "paint in broader strokes" to get the effects needed. I agree it is not optimal. However firm and fast can be accommodated for, Tastes Redwood is an excellent example.



Did you try different paths on 1 and 2 (same hole)? The correct placement of the drive will allow you to get close with a decent approach, the wrong one and the closest you will get is about 30 feet.

Same for the par 5, did you play it differently? Even if wind dictates strategy on it to a large degree it can be played in at least five different viable ways.



8 and 9 is an over the top representation of the concept. Not one bit subtle. Fairways are wide as the point on that hole is with the green. Notice that they are cut short by the bunkers and water so that the approach angle is almost decided for the player regardless of wind... Played with a friend on PC yesterday and he picked the wrong fairway two times in a row (only to almost hole out the first approach...).

[rod81simo]

Yep all points duly noted and if that was your intention then I guess it serves its purpose. Have played redwood and that was very challenging IMO. The par 5 I played both times up the left and put driver in bunker first up pitches out and had 170 to get on in 3. Hit a great shot that just trickled off back edge and held up without falling into bunker and then 2nd time round I hit 3wd and pulled up short if traps then 3 wood out to right fairway over ravine and had 120 in and hit it to long and in trap with a poor shot. With 8&9 and the forces layup I would shorten it by about 40yds as I hit driver both times into 8mph wind and it still pulled up short so not really forcing the issue there but get the thinking well done. And with 1&2 I played the 1st out to left as didn't watch fly over all the way and then played across green break and ended up I think 35ft away and also didn't know green speed or firmness. 2nd I actually played for up the middle as plan was for a draw against green break and I actually sliced the crap out of it and ended up extreme right hand side. Still played a drawer in and think from memory got it 12-15ft just high. Tuff tuff dribble of a putt down that went 6 past for bird tho. Ha. I played gregors firth earlier and went around in level par which was good that's a tuff course. Bordering unfair on greens on a few but you get that. If you would try out my course titled "Pacific Dunes" it was my firsts course I created and it plays firm and fast. Good layout made tuff by the greens. I struggle to break par. Haven't played it in a while I might have a round now and see what I can do

[Deleted]

Feb 23, 2015 0:21:15 GMT -5 @tastegw said:

Everyone can create courses, feel free to make one or more. Sure beats the tar outa suggesting methods for others to use.

Duly noted, and I'm guilty as charged as well and I apologize for that.

Looking at the 2 top equal tours, there is nothing amiss in the selection of designers.

Adam Benjamin
Rich Banker X2
Dario Logan X2
Nick Weisgerber
Job Fickett & Dan Hebert X2
Bryan Cowles
Wendy Airey
Joseph Bowling
Colin J. Watt
Kenny Canham X2
Mikael Thunberg
Keith Callahan
Brian Jeffords
Dale Burger X2
Chris Lane
Antoinio Scarpacci
Jeremy Blaylock
Adriaan Maarschalk
Andre Quenneville
Chris Biggins X2

The only minor criticism I would level is that most of all the courses have almost identical conditions.

So lets look at that further, and I believe the following might be the biggest reason scores are dropping so much.

On medium speed greens and a 24 foot putt with and evenly breaking where the break dot travels 1 grid in about 3 seconds, the break will be approx. 1.5 grids. On fast greens, the same putt will be 2.5 grids, on slow greens .9 of a grid. Yeah it's sad that I know that.

So if all the top designers stick with the medium greens, and those conditions continue to prevail on the tour, those courses are going to be dominated.

So IMHO, the vast difference in course designer selection is great, the course conditions for the most part should be switched up more for the top 2 tours. That's not to say other conditions have not been selected, they have, and dewdrop was a good example of the switch to fast greens kicking some good ole fashioned butt.