"Wind wait" policy

[Pubknight]

Jan 29, 2015 8:18:51 GMT -5 eMLBCommish said:

I piled on, and agree. To sustain momentum of any Tours, Wind needs to be addressed. Until then, we work with what we have, and adjust accordingly. For now, the better thing is probably to just shorten deadlines, which doesn't resolve the matter, but it shortens the window of manipulation potential. You can't keep waiting for those ideal 0-3 MPH winds as long, and might be shooting in 5-8 MPH. I'd assume (and crudely, with no data other than my own) that to be about a 0-3 shot deviation for the field in general.

Being not the greatest video game golfer, but also a real golfer that understands how to play in the wind, my totally unscientific guess from my own personal results and observations would be something like this:

0-5 mph winds - 1-3 shots better than 'normal'
6-10 mph winds - 'normal'
11-15 mph winds - 1-2 shots worse than 'normal'
16-20 mph winds - 3-4 shots worse than 'normal'
21+ - 5 shots or more worse than normal

I would think I am a little better than most Web.com/Champions tour players in dealing with the wind, from real life golf and understanding how to play it (I'm a 6 handicap irl).  Probably a little worse than Euro/PGA tgctour players, because of their more consistent swing motion.

but, yeah, it's a potential huge swing/impact on scoring.

[Oblong]

Thanks for the kind thoughts guys. Yes PubKnight it IS very encouraging that HB didn't seem to quash the thought immediately. I think they are listening because addressing the wind with my idea would be an easy server side fix. Winds are held on the server so do slow down the rate of wind strength wouldn't have to go through the long process of building a DLC patch, going through MS/Sony certification, and all the costs for doing so. It's simple enough that it could be implemented in days instead of months.

I should say that there are much better fixes to take care of the "wind waiter" problem, but I'm not sure there are easier fixes that would essentially accomplish the same purpose. I do like the idea of trimming deadlines for rounds but that could have an effect on participation while the idea presented here would not.

[djdavefl]

The typical average TGCT player (me included)




The typical wind waiting Hori user

[Fluid druid]

why dont we just make it forbidden to play in anything over 8mph, i get the feeling everyone will be happy with that.

[acidflashback]

Jan 29, 2015 12:17:28 GMT -5 djdavefl said:

The typical average TGCT player (me included)




The typical wind waiting Hori user

I Lol'd, which I guess also makes me slide towards image 2...

[acidflashback]

Jan 29, 2015 16:19:20 GMT -5 Fluid druid said:

why dont we just make it forbidden to play in anything over 8mph, i get the feeling everyone will be happy with that.

No wai man.

Might as well just let everyone card a -15 every round and pat each other on the back for how pro we all are shooting crazy scores in minimal winds.

12mph is fine, hard, but so what, golf is hard.

[eMLBCommish]

Jan 29, 2015 16:19:20 GMT -5 Fluid druid said:

why dont we just make it forbidden to play in anything over 8mph, i get the feeling everyone will be happy with that.

Can we all take home a trophy for being there, too?

[Fluid druid]

chill a bean guys, it was tongue in cheek...yes we have many wind waiters, they are not breaking any rules so whats the point in whining about it. I played the euro tour a few days ago all 4 rounds over 3 days, my first round i tee'd off in 12mph and carded -8 2nd round later that day 4mph carded -14. 8 mph the following night carded -10 and 5 mph the final round and carded -14 again....am i gonna win? hell no! that first round kinda put me out of the running early doors...do i care? hell no, i'm a good player and capable of winning a tour event but not bothered if i ever do, i just enjoy it for what it is...anyone winning a tour event whilst teeing off 4 rounds of 2 mph wind is only claiming a slightly hollow victory at the end of the day...if hb ever change the wind patterns then i will take it seriously.

[Deleted]

As I have each week, I set out to play Round 1 in the early am, teeing off at about 1:00 am Saturday.  The wind was blowing 12 mph on the 1st tee, and rather than wait, I thought I'd play.  I'd played about 6 practice rounds in winds under 8 mph, and shot 60-63 consistently.  The wind picked up and blew from 12-20 mph. I really was grinding.  The wind was in my face on all the par 5s making them unreachable, with tough 3rd shots.  Long story short, I missed a ton of greens, not judging the cross winds and under clubbing, and when I did hit the greens it was a long putt for birdie.  A 3 putt bogey on the last for -2.  End of tournament, no point playing round 2.  In winds under 8, I can compete for a top 30-40 spot, shooting low 60's. In high winds, my score goes up 8-9 shots.  I logged in again this am, and the winds were still up, and unlike a week ago where there were already many scores posted, this time there were none! Clearly nobody wanted to play those winds!   I believe that the current set up makes most of us have to wind wait, certainly if you want to compete, and for the PGA tour, even make the cut.  It's taking -17 to -20 to make the cut and most of us, (I'm one) can't shoot that in higher winds.  Did I enjoy shooting 8 shots higher in high winds? No. Would I have enjoyed it more knowing everyone was playing the same condition?  Absolutely.  I really hope HB comes up with a solution. Until then, it's back to wind waiting for me!

[Fluid druid]

the winds are totally unrealistic anyway, make it like perfect golf and there would be no problem.

[mellowswe]

OK, so the wind discussion seems to have died down a bit (pun intended  ) in here and has moved on to the HB forum where it probably belongs.

I personally don't really see it as a major problem but I know many of the players here do and while you can't please everyone, if a compromise can be found that appeals to most players then it is a good thing.
In my opinion there are things that TGCT can do to limit the effects of wind waiting without having to wait for HB to rewrite the wind system, and at the same time address a couple of other issues that I think aggravates the issue of wind waiting.

The positive effect on scores of wind waiters is not just due to players playing in lower wind speed. Most of the time I would imagine wind waiters wait for a favorable wind and then play all four rounds in a row in much the same winds or very similar. This obviously makes it even easier as for rounds 2 - 4 you would then know the exact club and dial you need on par 3s, as well as knowing how the ball will react when it hits the green surface in that wind. On par 4s and 5s you would know exactly how much of a dogleg to cut, especially on holes with big elevation differences.
Even if you are not wind waiting this is an effect that is obvious if you were to play all 4 rounds back to back. 

My solution is to play the tournaments as tours, where the designers are asked to publish 4 versions of their courses. The versions do not have to be different in any way, other than the name, but they can be; different pins, alternate tees, etc.

The upside of this is that every course has a different "wind cycle" and waiting for course #1 to have a low wind will not necessarily mean course #2 will have a low wind at the same time, and so on. This will increase the waiting time for wind waiters and hopefully force them to play in less than ideal conditions because submission deadlines are fast approaching.
Even if they do get low winds on two courses in a row, the winds might not necessarily come from the same direction and a 4 mph tail wind can play very different from a 4 mph head wind on most holes.

Those who are pressed for time and want to play all four rounds back to back can still do so and I imagine their experience would be enhanced by not playing the same wind in all rounds.

I know there have been a few issues with playing as a tour rather than tournament but I'm sure there are ways to make it work. After all, if we got through Q-school it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Anyway just some friendly suggestions.

[mcbogga]

Not a bad idea, mellow.

Otherwise I think locking down the wind in tournaments as suggested over at HB is the only way to go for competitive play. Direction, gusts etc. can still be random but better to have everyone play in similar conditions.

[Pubknight]

I was really encouraged by the discussion on HB's forums.
When Lorin posted that they were 'looking at' establishing the winds in each round of a tournament, my thought was "I don't think they would say that if it wasn't feasible."
To me it seemed like something he tossed out there to gauge reaction.
And the reaction was positive.
So I truly do believe it is something we will see.
It's just a matter of when.
Can't come soon enough for me.

The problem with the 55/56/57 postings is there is just no way to make up ground if you get in to trouble.
Wind makes the game more interesting, more strategic, and more challenging.
And it should also show more variability in the scoring.

Here's to hoping something happens sooner rather than later.

[roddymacd]

In round 2 of this weeks pga event I had to exit the game as my daughter was unwell and I had to collect her from school, when I start a round I always finish it no mater what the wind is, well in round 2 I was playing in 9-13mph winds and when I restarted the wind had got up too 19mph I still played the final 9 holes off my round hence the -3 on the back nine I don't know what you can do to stop people wind waiting but to be quit honest it doesn't bother me too much.

[dlw1964]

I would prefer 4 different pins.
The question is how hard & how time consuming is it to add 3 more pins to a course?
I don't design courses so I don't have any idea.