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Post by twangydave on Jul 25, 2017 10:53:14 GMT -5
Establish a list of approved controllers. Any sport has restrictions on gear and equipment that can be used (i.e. belly putters, size of tennis rackets etc etc) so I don't see this as being a problem. If you want to take part you have to use equipment that is sanctioned by the governing body.
When rounds are signed for you confirm you used an approved device in unmodified form i.e. stock settings without changes to default sensitivity settings.
This is a gentleman's game after all and fair play is at the core of preventing cheating. People who want to cheat will always find a way but, amongst a community of 'fair' people, they should be fairly easy to spot.
Use the data collected to police any suspicious individuals and conduct private investigations. Encourage other players to report suspicious activity in a confidential manner. Ban discussion of potential cheats in public forums etc.
Please note, I'm a complete newb and just signed up and ready to do the Q School. I did not play TGC1 so this is my first experience. I use a stock XBox 360 controller with the beginners clubs and can hit fairly straight with them consistently but the other clubs are much more difficult for me.
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Post by mcbogga on Jul 25, 2017 10:57:07 GMT -5
So eliminating the guys with all straight shots is a no-brainer. Smurf says numerous - what is numerous? 2? 4? 6? 8? 10? 12 per round? If we are talking any shot that isn't a putt, chip or pitch, then I might allow one. I have played with Brad and SmlingGoats and we all have whitelined that short putt a few times in the round.. It might not be perfect 0 but it is within the red. The "red" in these graphs is perfectly straight. Wont happen if controller does not have a dead zone, as the (albeit limited) data shared with us clearly points out. One is the needle in the haystack, two in a round means something is going on. Especially with a mouse I'd be very very surprised to see anything with zero deviation if snapping technology is not deployed. |
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Post by timeracer on Jul 25, 2017 10:58:10 GMT -5
can we have some laughs here...can I shoot a round with the afterglow controller that Doyley very rightly told me after 2 rounds last year, is definitely a straight shooter  . I'm telling you, that chart would be AMAZING and i'm so intrigued. Yea, I'm half wanting to plug in my Power A and play a round just to see what the graphs would say. Even with it, I could have spurts where I couldn't hit anything straight. Which is why I never even gave a thought of it being cheating until reading threads here. But if I was on and concentrating perfect straight lines were regular occurrence. But I wonder if they were zero deviation perfect lines or something slightly off of zero but still showed straight on the screen. |
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jul 25, 2017 11:01:10 GMT -5
can we have some laughs here...can I shoot a round with the afterglow controller that Doyley very rightly told me after 2 rounds last year, is definitely a straight shooter . I'm telling you, that chart would be AMAZING and i'm so intrigued. Yea, I'm half wanting to plug in my Power A and play a round just to see what the graphs would say. Even with it, I could have spurts where I couldn't hit anything straight. Which is why I never even gave a thought of it being cheating until reading threads here. But if I was on and concentrating perfect straight lines were regular occurrence. But I wonder if they were zero deviation perfect lines or something slightly off of zero but still showed straight on the screen. I used one as well. It seems easier than the DS4 on PC but not as easy as the Logitech. |
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Post by SmilingGoats on Jul 25, 2017 11:05:58 GMT -5
So eliminating the guys with all straight shots is a no-brainer. Smurf says numerous - what is numerous? 2? 4? 6? 8? 10? 12 per round? If we are talking any shot that isn't a putt, chip or pitch, then I might allow one. I have played with Brad and SmlingGoats and we all have whitelined that short putt a few times in the round.. It might not be perfect 0 but it is within the red. This is false. In the orange, yes. In the red, no. |
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Jul 25, 2017 11:06:43 GMT -5
So the argument is that some people swing SO STRAIGHT, that they would be as good as people who are cheating? So good that they would be indistinguishable from cheaters? And I'm really the first to post this??  Precisely. IMO we need to have parameters in place that the admins are 99% certain could ONLY be broken by someone using helpful equipment or by someone tweaking something to make it helpful.
Then, theoretically, the oblivious 3rd party controller users as well as the actual cheats are weeded out and everyone playing fair has no problem.
And, even if there is the odd person doing nothing wrong who falls foul, so be it. The integrity of the competition is more important than any one player
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Post by jacobkessler on Jul 25, 2017 11:12:28 GMT -5
I want to see my charts, just out of curiosity. I probably wouldn't be allowed to play because of how many shots are OUTSIDE the cone  |
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Post by Brighttail on Jul 25, 2017 11:14:50 GMT -5
Okay just read through 8 pages of comments. This is one of the reasons the admin waited a few weeks because they needed all this data and I'm glad they are sharing it with us because it really does show how difficult their future decisions are. Here is how I break down the data: All the golfers from A-J have a graph that raises suspicion. Some of it is quite obvious, multiple straight shots, shots that are exactly the same deviance from 0 on either side. Other graphs show potentially different issues, someone shooting with a lowered DPI, someone shooting with a very forgiving controller. While others show a variety of shots may indicate changing of a DPI or a controller, (IE open fairways shots using a normal device while approach shots using a manipulated or more forgiving device). Of all these I think it is safe to say the admin can contact the first two groups and tell them that their swing is out of compliance, disqualify them from the tournament and tell them to change their settings/controller. They may play the next tournament in the society so admin can get data, but they won't be allowed to register as an official score. If they become compliant (and not just barely), they are allowed to enter the following tournament. If six weeks down the road they are back to non-compliance, a second more harsh conversation needs to be held. This allows the folks who truly don't know that the controller they just bought or the mouse they just plugged in and did nothing to, is shooting to straight. With the third group. This is a little harder to police and see on a single round. I'm not sure if the admin can see First shot on a hole, second shot on a hole..if they can they can determine which shots are tee shots, which are secondary shots. They hopefully also can see what shots are on red slopes in a bunker and look at the swing of that particular shot. If not they are going to have to follow the player's ghost. Bottom line, this type of manipulation has intent behind it. Someone is actively trying to get around the API and thus in my opinion be dealt with more harshly. We should understand that the normal golf is going to have some good rounds, some really good rounds and the rest are average or bad. There is flux, so one really good round that might bring up flags, might be just a really good round. Finally I think what Jeff said about, it doesn't matter what device you are using because the admin could ban a device but how is that enforced? They can't see the device being used, so all they have are the numbers. Devices like the F310 doesn't have the software capability to 'tone it down' so a person using this, even trying to miss from time to time, should still be easily flagged. Mice that only have low DPI settings and can't be changed will be easily flagged. As always, if you follow someone and you are setting a lot of straight lines, email the commish. |
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Post by Brighttail on Jul 25, 2017 11:16:42 GMT -5
If we are talking any shot that isn't a putt, chip or pitch, then I might allow one. I have played with Brad and SmlingGoats and we all have whitelined that short putt a few times in the round.. It might not be perfect 0 but it is within the red. This is false. In the orange, yes. In the red, no. Ah so that is what you meant when you white lined it you were probably over .002. We still see it as a white line but it is really in the orange not the red. This makes more sense and I agree. We may whiteline a two foot putt but that doesn't mean it is a red. |
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Post by mcbogga on Jul 25, 2017 11:17:52 GMT -5
A proper algorithm picking up:
- Straight shots
- Overall deviation
- Clustering
then comparing this to a reference data set consisting of the average data from the top players that we can assume are also the straightest hitters in the game, could flag anomalies. The confidence interval of the anomalies needs to be determined, but there are perfectly valid ways to do such analysis on whatever level is desired. Add on some simple trend analysis as well - comparing the same player's performance over the full tournament or longer, and it should be quite robust. The resolution of the data and samples from top players show that anomalies can be picked up quite easily.
I don't think the exact algorithm and limits should be communicated, just knowing that there is a robust system in place to deal with the majority of cheaters and advantage devices is good enough.
Hopefully there is someone around with an understanding of data analysis that can help out build the system, but very encouraging to see that the data is in place to provide fair competition.
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Post by Brighttail on Jul 25, 2017 11:21:06 GMT -5
So the argument is that some people swing SO STRAIGHT, that they would be as good as people who are cheating? So good that they would be indistinguishable from cheaters? And I'm really the first to post this?? Precisely. IMO we need to have parameters in place that the admins are 99% certain could ONLY be broken by someone using helpful equipment or by someone tweaking something to make it helpful.
Then, theoretically, the oblivious 3rd party controller users as well as the actual cheats are weeded out and everyone playing fair has no problem.
And, even if there is the odd person doing nothing wrong who falls foul, so be it. The integrity of the competition is more important than any one player
There will be players on every platform that simply shoot it much straighter than others. In fact they may be the top straight shooter on that platform. Would it be fair to say they are 'too' straight if the admins are 100% sure that they aren't cheating or should that person who is the top shooter now become the guideline to which all averages that fall below that person's shooting would be considered illegal? I would had to penalize a truly great shooter by telling him/her that they have to change something when they just happen to be damn good. Sadly it is a numbers game. There is going to be a number assessed and like a speed limit if you are over it, you are in violation. |
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Jul 25, 2017 11:26:27 GMT -5
Precisely. IMO we need to have parameters in place that the admins are 99% certain could ONLY be broken by someone using helpful equipment or by someone tweaking something to make it helpful.
Then, theoretically, the oblivious 3rd party controller users as well as the actual cheats are weeded out and everyone playing fair has no problem.
And, even if there is the odd person doing nothing wrong who falls foul, so be it. The integrity of the competition is more important than any one player
There will be players on every platform that simply shoot it much straighter than others. In fact they may be the top straight shooter on that platform. Would it be fair to say they are 'too' straight if the admins are 100% sure that they aren't cheating or should that person who is the top shooter now become the guideline to which all averages that fall below that person's shooting would be considered illegal? I would had to penalize a truly great shooter by telling him/her that they have to change something when they just happen to be damn good. Sadly it is a numbers game. There is going to be a number assessed and like a speed limit if you are over it, you are in violation. If it's established beyond any doubt that the Player is doing nothing wrong (Say if they can produce the same results with different controllers) then you would have to re-assess.
But from the limited data I have seen, even very good players are rarely in the Red/Orange bits of the graph.
How rarely/often is considered suspicious is a decision for the admins who have literally thousands of rounds worth of data to make that call.
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Post by phillyotl on Jul 25, 2017 11:32:18 GMT -5
Are we really gonna have a problem with cheaters? What Controllers help with straight shooting? I've had the same one that came with the system 4 years ago and I have been shooting an average of -9ish with tour clubs. What's the problem with everyone doing it the right way
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Post by mcbogga on Jul 25, 2017 11:34:59 GMT -5
Opening up another potential can of worms, but is there a significant difference in how the data looks for mouse vs. controller players?
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Post by Brighttail on Jul 25, 2017 11:46:11 GMT -5
Opening up another potential can of worms, but is there a significant difference in how the data looks for mouse vs. controller players? At this point I would probably say that mouse users as a whole will be straighter. I know of at least 4 that have never touched their DPI from TGC 1 to 2 or can't change it. My guess is they are probably out of compliance and changes will have to be made. It doesn't mean that they have done anything intentionally wrong, just like some of the folks with the more lax controllers. With some of the work Fuzion and I did, i think the admin can get them quickly where they need to be. |
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. I'm telling you, that chart would be AMAZING 
