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Post by TarheelGolfer on Jul 25, 2017 9:58:50 GMT -5
I haven't read all 9 pages since you wanted opinions so if this has been covered I will reserve to change my opinion but I wanted to keep an open mind.
I have to make some assumptions because all the data is not laid out. Whether that is by choice (understandably so) or because the data doesn't deep dive.
#1 All charts are of the same controller type
#2 All charts are to the same x-axis scale. Sorry I couldn't zoom in far enough to see if they actually match up.
Everyone one of these are very suspicious in my head. I think the key here is consistency. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. But they all raise the suspicion of something. I would not call them out right cheaters from the get go. But the definitely raise the red flags in my book. If you eliminate the outside of the cone. A lot of the reference charts follow a natural statistical distribution and deviation. So all the Player Example charts are definitely a red flag in my book. Hence you calling them outliers, but with all data I would think your frame of reference has to be some type of bell curve and statistical deviation. All of these are definitely suspicious as only two do not have a shot outside the "cone" and per the reference charts that just doesn't seem to happen. Could that be a difference between the different club sets?
So with that being said, IMO
Definitely disallowed:
Player C - Too consistent
Player D - Too consistent
Player G - Too consistent and centered
Suspicion's raised and would have to see multiple rounds.
Player B - To centered not enough deviation.
Player E - To tightly grouped per the reference charts
Player H - This seems plausible using bell curve, deviation, etc.
Good to me but again need to keep an eye on it.
Player F
I don't envy the situation. But I think you need to ask this question, If the 19 reference charts are indeed an accurate representation of shooting data, are any of these obtainable without some form of help? Whether by actively cheating or by some sort of built in advantage by controller. By just looking at the data you provided I would have to conclude No. I would think if you were able to get drill down data by controller type (Xbox, Logitech Mouse, etc) you might be able to justify these type results under your artificial advantage results point but as it stands now looking at the questioned charts it is clear that whether by cheating or controller someone is getting some unfair advantage.
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Post by smurfblade88 on Jul 25, 2017 9:58:57 GMT -5
It's interesting that individuals who have been posting for weeks that 3rd party controllers and mouse users should be eliminated from competing are now saying that only those with numerous consecutive shots should be. Mouse users and 3rd party controllers don't look like player A. They look like other players who are listed here. If people here are looking for fair play then you need to trust that we can work to ensure that the playing field is level. In the meantime, enjoy yourselves. But understand that there's going to be a period of adjustment and that we are only interested in achieving fair play. We are not interested in witch hunts, casting suspicion, and acidic topics of conversation. Why dont you take your issues with up with people directly instead of footing around the issue? |
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jul 25, 2017 10:00:52 GMT -5
SweetTeeBag has been a very good sport - he knows that he has an advantage with the controller and has been open about it. But you will note one thing from his graphs - no shots counted as perfect! If you ever play a round against his ghost tho... you'd say different! His controller would not be flagged under Smurf's rules - hence why we do need to move into looking at the statistics of deviation from the normal to get a fairer more level playing field. My point through this controller makes it easier for sure and I have never doubted that. The admins will have to draw the line somewhere but where that is sounds like it has to still be determined. My guess is someone will get on a hot streak in a round and it may come into question how they did and it will probably be legit but could fall within the area the admins set as fishy. |
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Post by xraylucy on Jul 25, 2017 10:01:19 GMT -5
Red flags above for sure. I think what I'm trying to point out is that the admin's are going to have a tough time with that. Even though it looks definitely suspect. Let's say that The admis emailed the user of the controller. But the user says "gee I don't know I'm using a stock Xbox 360 controller. I don't know what's going on". Whether that's true or not who knows. But the problem is then does the admin say too bad so sad you're flagged as a cheater or you are banned or whatever? If I'm reading that graph right there were no pixel perfect swings. But not a lot of standard deviation either. And several repeated exact swings that we're not perfect. I'm not questioning the data at all I'm just questioning how in the heck do you figure out how to police that and do it fairly? You either go gestapo and turn a lot of people away or you get lenient and just deal with the fact that there's going to be people that work the system. I am trying to put myself in their place and I can honestly say I have no idea what I would do. I think this is the kind of feedback they're looking for. I think they have all the data they could need but they're not sure how to go about using it. That's why they started this thread I think. I think the green bar and the green yellowish bar will show as a pixel perfect line on your screen. Maybe the big purple one as well. |
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Post by smurfblade88 on Jul 25, 2017 10:01:23 GMT -5
So eliminating the guys with all straight shots is a no-brainer. Smurf says numerous - what is numerous? 2? 4? 6? 8? 10? 12 per round? Id say if someone has 3 consecutive dead straight shots you should have a chat privately with them about their device and swing technique. If someone has all there shots straight them absolutely off the bin with them. What do you think? |
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Jul 25, 2017 10:01:40 GMT -5
Red flags above for sure. I think what I'm trying to point out is that the admin's are going to have a tough time with that. Even though it looks definitely suspect. Let's say that The admis emailed the user of the controller. But the user says "gee I don't know I'm using a stock Xbox 360 controller. I don't know what's going on". Whether that's true or not who knows. But the problem is then does the admin say too bad so sad you're flagged as a cheater or you are banned or whatever? If I'm reading that graph right there were no pixel perfect swings. But not a lot of standard deviation either. And several repeated exact swings that we're not perfect. I'm not questioning the data at all I'm just questioning how in the heck do you figure out how to police that and do it fairly? You either go gestapo and turn a lot of people away or you get lenient and just deal with the fact that there's going to be people that work the system. I am trying to put myself in their place and I can honestly say I have no idea what I would do. I think this is the kind of feedback they're looking for. I think they have all the data they could need but they're not sure how to go about using it. That's why they started this thread I think. I understand the naivety of what I'm about to say....but I think in the example you've put forward, the only thing we can do is trust the honesty of the player in question. This is a video game, but it's still golf, and the foundation of the sport is honor and integrity. In saying that, I know that's not the way things actually are 100% of the time. So here's a question - how often do you guys see charts like the one above? Have you seen rounds from accomplished players that look similar, and have the background on them that they are in fact using a stock controller? Basically, how probable is it for a skilled player to get a chart like the one above using a stock controller? How about a top player using a mouse? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 10:03:36 GMT -5
Well, I'm going to be perfectly honest here. If Burtoncat's controller is ultimately allowed, I want to know which one it is so I can go out and buy it. How's that for honesty? Between the incredible sensitivity of the Tour Clubs and the FPS drops, I can't even play this game. It's that bad. So if I'm going to stay on the tour, I want the best controller I can "legally" get.
Do you all now understand the slippery slope we're going down with this?
Tim is, beyond any doubt, a standup guy. He is one of the last people I would even attempt to use the "C" word with and yet, there it is. A controller that I am sure a lot of people (not me) think should be banned. I think it's fine. Why? It's not a straight shooter. There IS deviation. The chart PROVES there's deviation.
So how slippery a slope do we all want to go down with this?
Tim, PM me privately and let me know what controller you're using so I can stop shooting 12 over par each round.
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Post by ijs1543 on Jul 25, 2017 10:04:08 GMT -5
This is a case where the user will say that not all his shots are straight. But they don't miss the cone either. If you take his 0.005 shot (straight white line off tee) and put it in a red slope lie - it won't be a straight line. But it will still be inside the slim red cone. This user would have no issues recovering from any lie they find themselves in unless they hit their one 0.02-0.0225 shot - in that case they might miss the cone/shank if it happened in a red slope. This is where you'll hear them say "I can miss the cone from time to time". All of this makes sense to the end user because they are telling the truth. It's just an advantage that we have to decide to include/exclude. Would have to say exclude seems way to consistent, especially from tough lies in rough or bunkers.
Good on you tim i know i had a few digs at you bud but by being honest with the control you used at least it will help scott jeff and tim detect what that control does which id imagine is a big help |
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jul 25, 2017 10:05:46 GMT -5
Theres one for the banned controller list... Stock simply cannot get anywhere close to competing with that. I want to know if those scripts on PS4 to help can be detected with this API. |
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Post by smurfblade88 on Jul 25, 2017 10:08:15 GMT -5
This is a case where the user will say that not all his shots are straight. But they don't miss the cone either. If you take his 0.005 shot (straight white line off tee) and put it in a red slope lie - it won't be a straight line. But it will still be inside the slim red cone. This user would have no issues recovering from any lie they find themselves in unless they hit their one 0.02-0.0225 shot - in that case they might miss the cone/shank if it happened in a red slope. This is where you'll hear them say "I can miss the cone from time to time". All of this makes sense to the end user because they are telling the truth. It's just an advantage that we have to decide to include/exclude. Would have to say exclude seems way to consistent, especially from tough lies in rough or bunkers.
Good on you tim i know i had a few digs at you bud but by being honest with the control you used at least it will help scott jeff and tim detect what that control does which id imagine is a big help The problem is they cant detect which controller anyone plays with though. So where do u draw the line if u dont have that info? |
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Post by Macs Power on Jul 25, 2017 10:10:04 GMT -5
Plot twist: Tim is a Logitech salesman.
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Post by Doyley on Jul 25, 2017 10:10:48 GMT -5
So eliminating the guys with all straight shots is a no-brainer. Smurf says numerous - what is numerous? 2? 4? 6? 8? 10? 12 per round? Id say if someone has 3 consecutive dead straight shots you should have a chat privately with them about their device and swing technique. If someone has all there shots straight them absolutely off the bin with them. What do you think? That's very limiting. You are underestimating the resolve of the cheater you are trying to catch. You aren't thinking about the guys with scripts to change all shots to something predictably offline (Player C) and not flagged in a straight shot only world. You aren't thinking of the player that only pulls out a 0 axis shot on approach shots only (there by having no consecutive 0-axis shots) - say a user that can turn it on/off at will. You are giving the green light for users to use all 3rd party devices like Burton's F310 that has 0 straight shots. You are giving users the green light to deaden their axis so the worst they can do is hit 0.015 shots similar to Player B. So your answer to police cheating is to only catch the guys that are very bad at cheating. You are then saying that those with an advantage are ok so when Burton fires up his F310 and beats you by 12 strokes you'll congratulate him and say good game. Even though 99% of his shots in-game are straight white lines due to the forgiving nature of his controller. That is a very different tune than what you've been singing the past month or so. |
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Jul 25, 2017 10:10:51 GMT -5
A controller that I am sure a lot of people (not me) think should be banned. I think it's fine. Why? It's not a straight shooter. There IS deviation. The chart PROVES there's deviation. Because it's clearly far less sensitive than a stock controller and gives the player using it a massive advantage. The deviations on that graph are so tiny they would result in shots that were to all intents and purposes dead straight
This whole discussion isn't about zero deviation - it's about people using easier controllers or fiddling with equipment to give themselves far less deviation than someone using out of the box equipment.
It's not as simple as "anything apart from zero deviation is totally fine"
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Post by KenTremendous on Jul 25, 2017 10:11:14 GMT -5
It's just an advantage that we have to decide to include/exclude. Personally if that sort of advantage (and its a bloody big one) is included/allowed, then either A) loads will not bother playing or B) will start tampering with devices. It just wouldnt be any sort of level playing field, and thats nothing against Tim, hes been honest in this, it just is what it is. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jul 25, 2017 10:13:12 GMT -5
Out of curiosity does the red zone or Orange zone grow for things like putts or easier clubs. Just trying to determine how hard it is to hit a red zone or orange zone shot. Also have you lot done tests with legit stock controllers and how often would you say orange or even red shots were with those pads? No - those zones don't grow or shrink - they are stagnant. The difficulty comes from what lie you are in. The lie is a multiplying factor so the worse your lie the more it takes that swing result and multiplies it. So for putts it's pretty much a 1:1 ratio. From a bunker on a red slope your swing result could be multiplied by 3 or 4 times. 0.005 times 4 = 0.02 0.026 times 4 = 0.104 In TGC2 that is a huge difference for two shots that would land on the fairway from a tee. From a red slope lie - one is in the cone and one is a shank. Is this also affecting uphill/downhill lies? If so, how - uphill comes up shorter and downhill goes a little further? |
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International Record: 7-0-0
