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Post by redvines13 on Dec 23, 2014 9:46:23 GMT -5
I think the biggest problem here is that it is really challenging to build courses that hold the top players to around par. I've been working on a course with this mentality, (I'm on hole 10, I could publish the latest version if anyone would like) and sometimes I still feel it should be tougher. I can't make it much longer, as the full layout is 7509 yards, par 70, and growing as I work. I wouldn't want to slim the fairways because they're mostly 20-30 yards wide already, and I planned on not having any maintained rough. The greens aren't huge, and pretty tough in my opinion. I might speed them up for a tournament. I'd like a top player or two to play and see what they do to the front 9.
In addition, I have never seen a course in TGC without maintained rough like the one I'm building and I'm wondering if there's a problem with that. For me, it adds challenge, creates a nice contrast with the Countryside theme, and make the course distinctively mine. Many of my favorite real courses are this way (Streamsong, Pinehurst, Diamante Dunes, and Ballyneal, for instance) so I'd like to hear thoughts on that.  
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Dec 23, 2014 9:49:35 GMT -5
I'm going through the process of selecting the early courses now. I selected Ascension Bay, what I consider to be a tough but still semi-realistic golf course (obviously this one is closer to fantasy due to the elevation changes, but still). Guys are molesting it. I'm sure the scores would be closer to even if it was a full field event, but the winners each week on the PGA Tour and probably the European Tour as well are going to be below -40. There's nothing we can do about it. -62 won Q-school on 5 brutal courses and 1 hard course. There is just no way we are ever going to see realistic scores on a golf video game. You can't recreate the complexity of the full body motion of a golf swing in the flick of a thumb. The mechanics don't equate. So we are where we are, and I'm not going to pick courses that alienate 3/4s of the field to try to challenge the top 1/4. I'm going to pick a wide variety of courses, with varying degrees of difficulty, theme, style, and course management requirements, to try to give everyone a few tournaments that play to their strengths, while trying to simulate the same criteria on the week's real-life counterpart. So yes, the majors will be tough. The US Open course is going to be a beast (close to what the OP wants...probably a 7400 yard par 70, and I'd venture to guess that -25 or -30 still wins) but the John Deere Classic course is going to be something where scores are going to be low. It's the best I can do. TL;DR Summary: Courses will be picked based on how much people enjoy playing them. If everyone ragequits, the tours die. Obviously, we don't want that. I just expect the majors to really test the Top 250 players |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 9:49:38 GMT -5
im going to hit the nail on the head and blow your mind at the same time burton.
your gripe is directed towards the wrong place.
give the tournament creators the ability to set the wind variances, and boom, instanlty drive down (or up depending on how you look at it, but worse is the spirit) scores across the board.
show me a -5 or better round @ kodiak or son gual in winds at a minimum of 15mph (would be the 15-18 range).
4 rounds of that, and you bet the leader would be closer to par than -40
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Dec 23, 2014 9:50:37 GMT -5
I think the biggest problem here is that it is really challenging to build courses that hold the top players to around par. I've been working on a course with this mentality, (I'm on hole 10, I could publish the latest version if anyone would like) and sometimes I still feel it should be tougher. I can't make it much longer, as the full layout is 7509 yards, par 70, and growing as I work. I wouldn't want to slim the fairways because they're mostly 20-30 yards wide already, and I planned on not having any maintained rough. The greens aren't huge, and pretty tough in my opinion. I might speed them up for a tournament. I'd like a top player or two to play and see what they do to the front 9.
In addition, I have never seen a course in TGC without maintained rough like the one I'm building and I'm wondering if there's a problem with that. For me, it adds challenge, creates a nice contrast with the Countryside theme, and make the course distinctively mine. Many of my favorite real courses are this way (Streamsong, Pinehurst, Diamante Dunes, and Ballyneal, for instance) so I'd like to hear thoughts on that. Looking forward to it! I would love to give it a go. If you can put up the 1st 9 holes would be sweet. |
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Dec 23, 2014 9:51:32 GMT -5
im going to hit the nail on the head and blow your mind at the same time burton. your gripe is directed towards the wrong place. give the tournament creators the ability to set the wind variances, and boom, instanlty drive down scores across the board. show me a -5 or better round @ kodiak or son gual in winds at a minimum of 15mph (would be the 15-18 range). 4 rounds of that, and you bet the leader would be closer to par than -40 Your probably right |
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Post by redvines13 on Dec 23, 2014 9:55:24 GMT -5
I'm looking to put the rough draft 18 out by Christmas or the days after, but much work (planting, smoothing terrain, etc.) will follow. I'll post something in the "Courses In Progress" section then.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 9:59:30 GMT -5
gregors is tricked up using all the tricks, makes the course ugly. And 9 plays later the course record is -3. Assuming Doyley and Jim hit it, expect it to go to -9.
I think everybody gets that the scores are not real to life, no need to repeat that, however what exactly is anyone supposed to do about it.
At the end of day, does it matter that winner shoots -62, and the cut ends up close to par, or how many would be pleased with the winner at -10 and the cut being +50. And the ugliness of the courses we would have endure for the 4 rounds is to much.
The OP is stating a problem without a solution. But there is no solution.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 10:03:33 GMT -5
I'm looking to put the rough draft 18 out by Christmas or the days after, but much work (planting, smoothing terrain, etc.) will follow. I'll post something in the "Courses In Progress" section then. You may wish to learn a lesson that's been learned here many times before, it will go nowhere, you might get 10 plays total. That's a ton of work to watch your course relegated to obscurity. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 10:04:26 GMT -5
I'm with Taste, the answer lies in the wind.
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Post by jwfickett on Dec 23, 2014 10:06:36 GMT -5
There is one other solution. The most obvious solution.
No grids, no scout cam. Turn off the grids and the scout cam and you can get some much more realistic scores. But Doyley tried that on the PGA Tour's first major and everyone hated it. The True Sim tour ended up with like 6 people playing it. I get why...it takes longer and it's hard and people actually ENJOY shooting in the low 60s and 50s every round. So rather than turn away everyone, we'll keep the aids on and the scores will reflect that.
These "easy" courses that are realistic in their design could be ultra bears with even low-to-medium winds with no aids.
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Post by jwfickett on Dec 23, 2014 10:10:03 GMT -5
I'm looking to put the rough draft 18 out by Christmas or the days after, but much work (planting, smoothing terrain, etc.) will follow. I'll post something in the "Courses In Progress" section then. You may wish to learn a lesson that's been learned here many times before, it will go nowhere, you might get 10 plays total. That's a ton of work to watch your course relegated to obscurity. Agreed. The "no defined rough" aspect of some courses does not translate on this game. Not to mention that heavy rough produces some impossible lies. Your course will be ignored. My suggestion is to place a light rough border if you want people to play it. |
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Post by redvines13 on Dec 23, 2014 10:12:44 GMT -5
I've decided that's fine with me. I want to build a beautiful course that's fun and challenging for me that my friends and I can play and enjoy despite its toughness. I shoot 77-85 in RLG and enjoy it, and the same on the courses I build. Anything else is gravy for me. I think I will place a light rough border around the course, albeit small.
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Post by djdavefl on Dec 23, 2014 10:15:47 GMT -5
While I understand the thoughts of the OP. I agree with Steve. IRL if I shoot a 69, I would have a shot at winning. However in the world of Video Game golf, shooting a 69 would usually put me at least 10 back of the lead.
I know that the best players in this game are automatically going to best me by anywhere from 6 to 9 shots per round. That fact will not change if they shoot a 59 or a 69.
For the average player (like myself) it is more fun to be mired in 70th place by posting a -20 for four rounds, than it would be to be mired in 70th place shooting +40. (That I could do IRL).
Last night I played 4 practice rounds on Eagleton Bend, the site of the first Euro Tour event. Shot -26 total. For me that was a great 4 round total. But I anticipate the winning score will probably be somewhere in the range of -48 to - 56.
If I were playing in a AI tour like TW, and the scores were in the -40 to -60 range, that would be frustrating and unrealistic, when you always see a leaderboard dominated by real tour pro names with scores of 57-58-56-59. That would be unrealistic. However when playing against real people who really are 6 - 9 shots better than me the low scores are fine.
Sorry for the rant.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Dec 23, 2014 10:17:30 GMT -5
Appreciate all the comments. I was just looking for feedback. Right now we don't have the option to adjust wind which is unfortunate.
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Post by smoknpirate on Dec 23, 2014 10:42:03 GMT -5
FWIW, Burton, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I have a lot of love and respect for the game of golf and the Majors are a large part of that. You would love to see them portrayed in the game similar to real life, but that's just not going to happen without the course being over the top tricky. Super firm and fast, pins tucked behind bunkers or right near water hazards, extremely narrow fairways with bunkers all over the place, etc. You almost have to change what your concept of par is. It's got to be more about the overall competition than the score. It's all relative.
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